Rules are made to be broken...?

If you have a question for members of the Zombie Squad bring it over here.

If this is a question specifically for an official authorized representative of Zombie Squad, Inc. your best bet will be to e-mail service@zombiehunters.org

Moderator: ZS Global Moderators

Re: Rules are made to be broken...?

Postby KJ4VOV » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:05 pm

CB4 wrote:I think the only situation where you would be justified in stealing, B&E, etc would be when we've reached a point where the world will never return to the way it was before....where there will never be an established government or force of law ever again.
I just dont see that ever happening outside the movies. Prepping with the thought in mind that you will be able to scavenge things in the PAW when everyone else is dead and get away with it is pure fantasy.


This is actually outside the scope of our discussion, violates the forum rules, and will get this thread closed, so let's not go there at all, okay?

We need to keep the thread focused upon how, when and why laws might/will change after/during disasters, or in a PAW society.
NOTE: Due to the rising cost of ammunition, warning shots will no longer be given.

There's always a certain percentage of any population with the conviction that society is a conspiracy to deny them their rights.
The right to be totally ignorant of any useful knowledge seems to be the basic one.
- Keith Laumer
User avatar
KJ4VOV
ZS Donor
ZS Donor
 
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:37 pm
Location: Fredericksburg, VA

Re: Rules are made to be broken...?

Postby bluesquid » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:26 pm

"Its better to ask for forgiveness, than permission" or something like that.

I will follow the letter of the law as far as this forum goes. It would be stupid not to. In the broad sense, most laws are made to empower or enrich certain groups over other groups. It is my firm belief that the vast majority of laws allow some to prosper, while others suffer. The tax laws are definitely set up the way they are for that reason. Im not going to get into all types of laws, but the same holds true.


One of my favorite quotes is something like "A man can break any law he wants as long as he stayswell fed, and out of prison.
FEED YOUR WOLVES WISELY! "The best battle rifle ever made is the FAL bar none".
User avatar
bluesquid
BANNED
 
Posts: 586
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:58 pm
Location: ADK NY

Re: Rules are made to be broken...?

Postby modustollens » Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:12 am

"Until the Constitution is revoked by consent of the people, it and all the laws passed under it remain in force."

We must be sure not to equivocate either 'force' or 'law'. I pointed out the many meanings of the latter above. But to say that the law will be 'in force' in a PAW because it is on the books is to not emphasize the difference between de jure and de facto: for just because a law is on the books and it is to be followed by its force de jure does not mean that such a law has any forcede facto.

Without an organized power to enforce law what is written in a book or on a piece of paper is pretty much worthless, or as Hobbes says, "covenants, without the sword, are but words and of no strength to secure a man at all." In a PAW, indeed, even in everyday practical life, what is written about your rights in a book means little at the point of impact of a criminal's club if you are too weak to defend yourself or if you live in a state where armed defense is prohibited. The facts on the ground will determine in large measure what will be acceptable or unacceptable.

In as much as preparing material goes, disaster prepping is perhaps fun if not cool if not paranoid. But that's the easy part. To be prepared also means to be prepared morally, politically and psychologically. There will be some who contain a democratic spirit and will cooperate; then there will be bandits and criminals who scavenge just as they do now; but there will also be megalomaniacal tyrants who will aim to become feudal lords or dictators. Nor can one assume that all our former neighbours will only want to be peaceful, law-abiding democracy lovers. The Stanford Prison experiment and the Milgram experiment showed that people are very plastic given certain facts or situations.

States throughout history have come into and gone out of existence as has their laws and customs. Indeed, the U.S.'s origin itself is a violation of the 'law' in so far as the founders did not want to pay their taxes to the King and so revolted. Somewhere I bet there was a written law in England making it illegal to revolt against the King's commands. Sometimes, therefore, breaking the law is the right thing do (and by 'right' here I do not mean 'legal' but 'moral'), assuming representative democracy is better than hereditary monarchy. Of course, what is 'moral' is a discussion to be had; but even this notion is not without its own history of debate so even if it is not admitting the exactitude of geometry it is still not undefinable.

The fact remains that the difference between legal, moral and natural law can set up a system akin to that of a trump card: one would think that natural and moral laws will trump mere legal laws (and the civil rights movement and the abolitionist movement is a case in point in the absence of a PAW); I doubt that one could expect such trump power to diminish in a PAW. Of course, stealing another's property is not illegal because there is a law against it; it is illegal because it is immoral for people's property rights are natural, not merely legal.

Of course, the scale in both time and space will affect things greatly for the first people in a disaster will still have some of the values and principles of the old system and there may be some outside help to keep traditions alive; but if neither is the case then after a few generations the old ways will be forgotten. If a disaster is truly a PAW the state system that was before it may never return, regardless of one's patriotism.

Still, a state's constitution's existence is not sufficient for the existence of the state: there must also be an organized power that fulfills the duties and obligations that the state owes to the citizen; if those duties and obligations cannot be filled then the state does not actually exist and, by a right of nature, a person resumes his or her natural sovereignty.

Hobbes wrote:For the laws of nature, as justice, equity, modesty, mercy, and, in sum, doing to others as we would be done to, of themselves, without the terror of some power to cause them to be observed, are contrary to our natural passions, that carry us to partiality, pride, revenge, and the like. And covenants, without the sword, are but words and of no strength to secure a man at all. Therefore, notwithstanding the laws of nature (which every one hath then kept, when he has the will to keep them, when he can do it safely), if there be no power erected, or not great enough for our security, every man will and may lawfully rely on his own strength and art for caution against all other men.
User avatar
modustollens
* *
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:51 am

Re: Rules are made to be broken...?

Postby Doctorr Fabulous » Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:57 am

Well put modustollens, but I would move that there is still, in fact, the Human Law. Human LAw goes by many different names, but is more or less common worldwide to each individual, regardless of the governmental standing.

Things like "Stealing is wrong. Murder is wrong. Rape is wrong." Just because those laws are broken, does not mean that they are not commonly known and commonly held.

But the basic premise, I think, is that at no point short of a full governmental collapse would there be any sort of justification for reconsidering the exact rule of law., such as things like the conduct of local government and the speed limit on the highway.

On the other hand, should that collapse happen, keep in mind the copper rule: "Don't do anything that might leave you with a hide full of copper." It's like the old Golden Rule we learned as kids, except that we remember that looting/scavenging, breaking and entering, rape, murder, etc. are all things that would get you shot if the property owner or family member was to walk up as you attempted whatever you do. Another good rule of thumb is the fallback: "How would I feel if this happened to me?"

Just my $.26 (adjusted for inflation)
Opinions subject to change without in light of new information.
Image

https://www.facebook.com/DocsGuns
User avatar
Doctorr Fabulous
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
 
Posts: 7436
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:06 pm
Location: Central Florida

Re: Rules are made to be broken...?

Postby DarkAxel » Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:25 am

modustollens wrote:food for thought


Good post. I just offer this:

What I posted above is my opinion, and I would ask others to consider that opinion.

Yes, I do think that there will be asshats that believe a major SHTF is a perfect excuse to rob, rape, and loot. I'm sure that some desperate people will break the law to survive, and that in some emergencies, LEAs will be too occupied to enforce everyday peacekeeping law. I would imagine that terms like "martial law" and "mob rule" would gain a lot of currency.

But I would remind everyone that just because you can get away with something in the short-term doesn't mean that they can escape the long-term consequences of their actions. Historical precedent comes from Nazi Germany and the Nuremberg Trials, the Balkan Conflicts and the War Crimes Tribunals, the Iraqi Baath regime and conviction and execution of Saddam Hussein. Hell, take a look at the Arab Spring Uprisings and the aftermath. Long-ruling autocrats that held de facto power over their people are now being tried, or have been executed or exiled for disregarding their nation's constitutions and/or "Human Rights" violations.

I understand that extreme survival situations have an immediacy that can't be ignored. But that's why I prep. that's why I want others to prep. If you have what you need, you don't have to run down to the Wal-Mart to battle the would-be landfill kings for the chance to shoplift a few cans of beans.
vyadmirer wrote:Call me the paranoid type, but remember I'm on a post apocalyptic website prepared for zombies.

Fleet #: ZS 0180

Browncoat

Imma Fudd, and proud of it.
User avatar
DarkAxel
ZS Member
ZS Member
 
Posts: 3091
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:25 am
Location: Jackson, KY

Re: Rules are made to be broken...?

Postby bluesquid » Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:29 am

I just read this page of this thread. You guys are all awesome, great guys based on your remarks. The world isnt so great.

Rules and laws are broken all the time. Its not stealing if its Enron. Or Halliburton. Im not getting political, because it has nothing to do with politics. Your politics and mine may differ, but you have to realize our goverment is stealing us blind.


http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7388130n

Rules and laws are made for the people that benefit from them.

There are numerous examples. im no9t going to list hem all. If you care about this country, your children, or even your fellow man. Investigate this for yourself. It is not about politics. ITs about our country, our lifestyle, and our constitution.


Google "constitution"

Here is the link

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/constitution

Think about why that word was chosen. really think about the definitions and meaning behind it all.
FEED YOUR WOLVES WISELY! "The best battle rifle ever made is the FAL bar none".
User avatar
bluesquid
BANNED
 
Posts: 586
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:58 pm
Location: ADK NY

Re: Rules are made to be broken...?

Postby Kommander » Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:31 am

Actually bluesquid there is a large number of people who think that the US government is not "stealing" enough money from it's citizenry, some even here on this board! So no we don't have to agree and yes this topic is inherently political.
MEAT WORLD MEAT DRAGON RIDER

Image

Why must all the hoops be on fire?
User avatar
Kommander
* * * * *
 
Posts: 4084
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:38 am
Location: Mesa, AZ

Re: Rules are made to be broken...?

Postby phil_in_cs » Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:37 am

and with this bit, I am going to lock it down. Discussions of the rules are good, but the posts overnight are also political.
Image

Don't confuse a belligerent and aggressive attitude with the strength, training, and conditioning needed to prevail in a fight. How do you know you have the Will To Win, if you don't even have the will to train?
User avatar
phil_in_cs
ZS Moderator
ZS Moderator
 
Posts: 11165
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:18 pm
Location: central tx

Previous

Return to Ask ZS

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests