Explosion in Oslo

by **wee drop o' bush** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:41 am

My deepest sympathies go to all those affected by the Norwegian terror attacks...& almost certainly it will effect every Norwegian to some extent:cry:
I hate terrorism in any form, no matter what it's scale or motivation
This is a bad day for Norway

by **wee drop o' bush** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:49 am

Here is a link to a BBC update
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14259356

by **Liff** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:08 am

Prepare for the future means learning from the past, right? I am shocked at the sheer number of people who have been lost by one person. How can we prevent this in the future? My thoughts below. No judgements, just thoughts. I hesitate to post this because I kinda don't want to post in this thread, because any thread seems callous under the recent past. I am honestly sick to my stomach now thinking about the past 48 hours. that said, I wish someone else posted this before I did, I am sorry if it offends.

On Wednesday of last week, a buddy and me were discussing what would happen if someone who had any training or experience were to do this. He said it happened once, Charles Whitman in Texas. That guy had a brain tumor, which may have caused him to go crazy. One of the issues that kept the number lost in that situation is civilian riflemen were shooting back at him alongside the police. That would never happen today, but this action meant that Charles Whitman could only shoot out of the drain holes for the observation tower, which dramatically lessened his ability to kill.

The guy in Tucson (forgot his name) was tackled as he was trying to reload, which dramatically lessened his ability to kill.

I have no idea what happened on that island, I do not pretend to know what happened on that island. "Fight back" is as best as I can word this. No judgement toward anything other than from a planning/preparedness point of view, fight back. It seems like this is the best option for a gunman. Half of prepared is to have a plan, what is your plan if this happens next to you? What plans worked well in the past?

I am not trying to advocate anything other than identifying trends and encouraging people to have a plan.

by **Paladin1** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:25 am

What a tremendous tragedy. I can't find words to express how this makes me feel, some combination of rage, grief, empathy, helplessness....

No one can understand the mind of someone who could gather children together and start shooting them. But it's beyond any political explanation. He was twisted in the worst way and any stated motivation is just a way for us to explain his actions.

Truthfully, he was just a psychotic waiting for something to set him off.

by **Jeriah** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:54 am

Liff wrote:Prepare for the future means learning from the past, right? I am shocked at the sheer number of people who have been lost by one person. How can we prevent this in the future? My thoughts below. No judgements, just thoughts. I hesitate to post this because I kinda don't want to post in this thread, because any thread seems callous under the recent past. I am honestly sick to my stomach now thinking about the past 48 hours. that said, I wish someone else posted this before I did, I am sorry if it offends.

On Wednesday of last week, a buddy and me were discussing what would happen if someone who had any training or experience were to do this. He said it happened once, Charles Whitman in Texas. That guy had a brain tumor, which may have caused him to go crazy. One of the issues that kept the number lost in that situation is civilian riflemen were shooting back at him alongside the police. That would never happen today, but this action meant that Charles Whitman could only shoot out of the drain holes for the observation tower, which dramatically lessened his ability to kill.

The guy in Tucson (forgot his name) was tackled as he was trying to reload, which dramatically lessened his ability to kill.

I have no idea what happened on that island, I do not pretend to know what happened on that island. "Fight back" is as best as I can word this. No judgement toward anything other than from a planning/preparedness point of view, fight back. It seems like this is the best option for a gunman. Half of prepared is to have a plan, what is your plan if this happens next to you? What plans worked well in the past?

I am not trying to advocate anything other than identifying trends and encouraging people to have a plan.

This is, in general, what I try to think about every time I hear a story like this, and it happens all too often. Sometimes playing dead works (heard one of the kids from the island on NPR this morning say he survived by playing dead), as can running, or hiding. Depending on the circumstances, you might play dead (for example if you're in a middle of an open area surrounded by corpses and he's 25 yards away, watching the field with a loaded weapon), you might run (for example if he is actively firing at you), or you might hide (if you think you can do so without being found). I think the important thing is to allow the situation to dictate your course of action, rather than being so one-track that you do the same thing all the time, even if it's wrong for the situation.

In general, though, I think the right answer is to do the thing that's easy to say on the Internet, and tough as hell to actually do: suck it up and try to find a way to take the guy out. If you're carrying a concealed weapon, you've got an edge, but another option is to take cover, and watch the guy until he has to reload (yes, you're watching him kill people, and yes, that sucks), then rush him and hope he hasn't trained emergency reloads. The Tueller Drill works both ways, remember. This is, unfortunately, a good way to get yourself killed; running or hiding is much safer. But when everyone does the safest thing, you get a body count of 80 kids. I'm not judging anyone nor saying what I would or could do in the situation, just observing that these situations only end when someone sucks it up and takes a major risk with their life to stop the guy. (That, or he kills enough people that he decides he's done and takes his own life. But that's not really a "win" for anybody.)

by **Makarov** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:47 am

I've had a few thoughts about the reaction of those on the island, and I've talked about this at work today. The biggest thing here is that these were mostly kids. They were not ready for this, because no one in Norway expected that this could happen.

I've trained Krav Maga. That system was made to train everyone, from kids to the elderly, for a situation similar to this. It's a system based on a persons fight/flight-response, where the situation your in decide. I honestly don't know what I would have done if I've been there.

Anyways, media reports of several acts of heroics where done at the island. I saw a interview of with a young man who gave first aid under fire, they also talked about one boy who swam across to the mainland towing his injured friend.

Livejournal moment:
This shit has hit close for me, as I mentioned I spent my youth in that organization, and attended 2 summercamps there(actually met my first "real" girlfriend there). I don't think I know any of those that were killed or injured, but I might know their parents. I'm fucking numb.

And lest not forget the bomb in Oslo. So far I've found none of my friends affected by the bomb, but one buddy tells that his wife has several co-workers who were injured(and maybe killed). Fortunately they're on vacation, so his wife were not there.
/Livejournal

Lastly, as I mentioned earlier: This is an attack on the Norwegian Democracy as a whole, and our job now will be to make sure that Norway will continue to be a open, free democracy. We must make sure that people can continue to enjoy the freedom of speech, and the freedom to be a member of any political party(be it left or right) without fear.

by **Liff** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:55 am

You are right Jeriah, there is not always one best plan, flexibility is always a good idea to have.

Jeriah wrote:But when everyone does the safest thing, you get a body count of 80 kids. I'm not judging anyone nor saying what I would or could do in the situation, just observing that these situations only end when someone sucks it up and takes a major risk with their life to stop the guy. (That, or he kills enough people that he decides he's done and takes his own life. But that's not really a "win" for anybody.)

Yeah, this. You never know what you or anyone else will do in any given hypothetical situation, even if you have been in that situation before. So this isn't a 'What would you do" type of thing (there is a forum for that). It is more of a think about and have some thought about this tragedy before this type of thing comes to you.

Again, no judgement from me. I wasn't there, I have no idea what really happened. I don't know. If I was there, I don't know what I would have done. If I was 300 meters away and he was effective out to 300 meters, .... No idea what I would have done. Just thinking out loud here about Jeriah's quote above.

by **Mad_Maxx** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:17 pm

One and a half hour response time from the police. Shows how "safe" you are with the norwegian police. I know for a fact that if something criminal happens where i live, outside of office hours, it will take a few hours for the police to arrive.... But that doesnt mean youre allowed to defend yourself, oh no, that would be unfair to the poor criminals :roll:

by **ei8htx** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:27 pm

This is really, really sickening. When I came back several hours later and saw the death toll at 80 and that the guy gathered the kids together to shoot them it felt like I got punched in the gut.

There is no earthly punishment that fits this guy's crime.

by **Night Fox** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:00 pm

I heard that the deathtool may near be 90. Heard on the news earlier on that the cops may or may not be looking for a second person connected to all this.

by **zoiders** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:23 pm

I am feeling a bit crappy about my first call being right.

by **Tor@Norway** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:31 pm

So far 92 people is confirmed dead. 7 killed in the bomb attack, 85 shot and killed at and near Utøya. 4-5 persons is still missing at Utøya. The search on the island is now concluded. The search for more bodies in the surrounding waters of the island Utøya is still ongoing. Many is also wounded, 20 people has been reported as being in a critical state. This means that the total death toll is likely to reach 96-97 or even triple digits.

by **A.C.E.** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:36 pm

Mad_Maxx wrote:One and a half hour response time from the police. Shows how "safe" you are with the norwegian police. I know for a fact that if something criminal happens where i live, outside of office hours, it will take a few hours for the police to arrive.... But that doesnt mean youre allowed to defend yourself, oh no, that would be unfair to the poor criminals

We have much the same view on self defense in Sweden.

I think the best way to limit the damage from this kind of attacks is to raise the publics knowledge of what to do in a crisis. Much of what ZS is all about. This tragedy shows all to clear the importance of ACTION if one is caught in an attack. This isn't limited to self defense alone, first aid, escape and evasion, communication, all things that helped people get away from the shooter.

There is also the issue with bad guys impersonating LEOs. I feel this is becoming more and more common. In sweden there's been instances where armored cars hae been robbed by fake policemen and elderly people letting people posing as policemen into their apartments. I don't know what to do about this, except to teach children not to trust policemen until they show ID. AND to teach your children that it's always ok to defend themselves, no matter who attacks them or why. I believe that self defense should be taught to every child in school together with first aid and cpr.

by **zoiders** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:37 pm

Thinking of the interstitials that must be at play here this is all shaping up very badly and it's far from over.

These guys smell of military or have been, not just the short national service period either.

by **SuperShot** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:43 pm

Makarov wrote:I've had a few thoughts about the reaction of those on the island, and I've talked about this at work today. The biggest thing here is that these were mostly kids. They were not ready for this, because no one in Norway expected that this could happen.

I've trained Krav Maga. That system was made to train everyone, from kids to the elderly, for a situation similar to this. It's a system based on a persons fight/flight-response, where the situation your in decide. I honestly don't know what I would have done if I've been there.

Anyways, media reports of several acts of heroics where done at the island. I saw a interview of with a young man who gave first aid under fire, they also talked about one boy who swam across to the mainland towing his injured friend.

Livejournal moment:
This shit has hit close for me, as I mentioned I spent my youth in that organization, and attended 2 summercamps there(actually met my first "real" girlfriend there). I don't think I know any of those that were killed or injured, but I might know their parents. I'm fucking numb.

And lest not forget the bomb in Oslo. So far I've found none of my friends affected by the bomb, but one buddy tells that his wife has several co-workers who were injured(and maybe killed). Fortunately they're on vacation, so his wife were not there.
/Livejournal

Lastly, as I mentioned earlier: This is an attack on the Norwegian Democracy as a whole, and our job now will be to make sure that Norway will continue to be a open, free democracy. We must make sure that people can continue to enjoy the freedom of speech, and the freedom to be a member of any political party(be it left or right) without fear.

I`m with my friend Makarov here.
This is a time to stand together and take care of the ones that are left behind. Horrible deeds like this can only be fought with openess, compassion and care for our fellow men. I`m very angry, but I know hate and voilence won`t make this situation any better.
Murdering 92 people only make a man a looser and a paria.

by **Tor@Norway** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:36 pm

This incident has really affected Norway. I live about 50 km/30 miles north of Oslo. My neighbourhood is made up of a lot of small one-family homes, two-, three- and four-stories apartment complexes situated closely together. It's a Saturday in late July, 10:30 pm. Granted, I live in a relatively peaceful neighbourhood, but considering the young demographics of this area, the weekend and the time of year I normally would expect to hear people being outside in their gardens and on their balconies. Laughing youngsters going to and from parties or out on the town, music from open windows, and cars driving way too fast in this drive-slow zone.
I can't hear any of that, I can't hear any sound at all. It's really an eerie quiet...and I don't like it.

by **ninja-elbow** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:01 pm

I have not much to say or discuss. I am girding myself for the American anti-gun hate I will face but that is no matter to any of you guys as you have bigger things to deal with. My sympathies to you sisters and brothers. As I have Norwegian blood in me, my honest and deep felt sympathies. I do not know what else to do right now but offer you that.

by **raptor** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:13 pm

I read this and IMO it helps explain the large number of casualties. The shooter was active for an 1 1/2 hours.

The man asked to address the group, and then started shooting. According to police, the gunman was active and shooting for an hour and a half before authorities arrived. He used at least one automatic weapon and one handgun, police said.

I am glad he surrendered. That said I hope he resisted arrest and had to be "restrained" as well as "tripped and fell" a few times on the way into custody.

An elite police unit took the gunman into custody on the island, Sponheim said. The man did not put up a fight during his arrest.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/07 ... ?hpt=hp_t1

by **Rev** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:19 pm

They keep saying "automatic weapon". Are we talking a semi auto rifle or a full auto weapon?

by **A.C.E.** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:41 pm

Rev wrote:They keep saying "automatic weapon". Are we talking a semi auto rifle or a full auto weapon?

He posted pics of himself with an AR online earlier. Apparently he was into dynamic shooting, thus he could get such guns legally. Semi auto though.

by **sheldor** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:57 pm

The only pic i have seen is this:

That is a ruger mini 14.

by **Valarius** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:59 pm

Jeriah wrote:
Liff wrote:Prepare for the future means learning from the past, right? I am shocked at the sheer number of people who have been lost by one person. How can we prevent this in the future? My thoughts below. No judgements, just thoughts. I hesitate to post this because I kinda don't want to post in this thread, because any thread seems callous under the recent past. I am honestly sick to my stomach now thinking about the past 48 hours. that said, I wish someone else posted this before I did, I am sorry if it offends.

On Wednesday of last week, a buddy and me were discussing what would happen if someone who had any training or experience were to do this. He said it happened once, Charles Whitman in Texas. That guy had a brain tumor, which may have caused him to go crazy. One of the issues that kept the number lost in that situation is civilian riflemen were shooting back at him alongside the police. That would never happen today, but this action meant that Charles Whitman could only shoot out of the drain holes for the observation tower, which dramatically lessened his ability to kill.

The guy in Tucson (forgot his name) was tackled as he was trying to reload, which dramatically lessened his ability to kill.

I have no idea what happened on that island, I do not pretend to know what happened on that island. "Fight back" is as best as I can word this. No judgement toward anything other than from a planning/preparedness point of view, fight back. It seems like this is the best option for a gunman. Half of prepared is to have a plan, what is your plan if this happens next to you? What plans worked well in the past?

I am not trying to advocate anything other than identifying trends and encouraging people to have a plan.

This is, in general, what I try to think about every time I hear a story like this, and it happens all too often. Sometimes playing dead works (heard one of the kids from the island on NPR this morning say he survived by playing dead), as can running, or hiding. Depending on the circumstances, you might play dead (for example if you're in a middle of an open area surrounded by corpses and he's 25 yards away, watching the field with a loaded weapon), you might run (for example if he is actively firing at you), or you might hide (if you think you can do so without being found). I think the important thing is to allow the situation to dictate your course of action, rather than being so one-track that you do the same thing all the time, even if it's wrong for the situation.

In general, though, I think the right answer is to do the thing that's easy to say on the Internet, and tough as hell to actually do: suck it up and try to find a way to take the guy out. If you're carrying a concealed weapon, you've got an edge, but another option is to take cover, and watch the guy until he has to reload (yes, you're watching him kill people, and yes, that sucks), then rush him and hope he hasn't trained emergency reloads. The Tueller Drill works both ways, remember. This is, unfortunately, a good way to get yourself killed; running or hiding is much safer. But when everyone does the safest thing, you get a body count of 80 kids. I'm not judging anyone nor saying what I would or could do in the situation, just observing that these situations only end when someone sucks it up and takes a major risk with their life to stop the guy. (That, or he kills enough people that he decides he's done and takes his own life. But that's not really a "win" for anybody.)

You'd have to be a video game kid to pull off a move like playing dead among the bodies or braining him with a rock. And more guts and presence of mind than I could ever imagine having in that kind of situation.

I was going to joke about something but I just want to cry.

by **A.C.E.** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:08 pm

sheldor wrote:That is a ruger mini 14.

I stand corrected. I guess i didn't look very carefully at it, I just saw the massive heap of tacticool junk and thought "that what ppl do to ARs".

Speaking about tacticool shit, isn't that vfg mounted way to far forward?

by **KentsOkay** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:45 pm

A.C.E. wrote:
sheldor wrote:That is a ruger mini 14.

I stand corrected. I guess i didn't look very carefully at it, I just saw the massive heap of tacticool junk and thought "that what ppl do to ARs".

Speaking about tacticool shit, isn't that vfg mounted way to far forward?

Yeah, but there isnt a rail to mount it on anway. Also he doesnt even use it.