Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Stuff that’s happening in the world that may pertain to our survival. Please keep political debates off the forum.

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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Postby Blacksmith » Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:23 pm

Rev wrote:
Blacksmith wrote:Turkey has legal government discrimination against the Alawites.


Wouldn't that be a problem when seeking admission to the EU?


:lol:

Most of the EU does not have a Ministry of Religion that requires mandatory religious training every Monday. There is no such thing as freedom of religion in an Arab or Islamic state. It might be in the Constitution in theory but it is never practiced in reality. Defame the beliefs of the ones in power and they will lock you up and throw away the keys.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/defaul ... 2010-12-13

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... ic-values/
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Postby Rev » Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:45 pm

Blacksmith wrote:
Rev wrote:
Blacksmith wrote:Turkey has legal government discrimination against the Alawites.


Wouldn't that be a problem when seeking admission to the EU?


:lol:

Most of the EU does not have a Ministry of Religion that requires mandatory religious training every Monday. There is no such thing as freedom of religion in an Arab or Islamic state. It might be in the Constitution in theory but it is never practiced in reality. Defame the beliefs of the ones in power and they will lock you up and throw away the keys.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/defaul ... 2010-12-13

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... ic-values/


But they are seeking admission to the EU and I swear such things are required. Will they never be allowed in?
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Postby Blacksmith » Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:07 pm

Rev wrote:
Blacksmith wrote:
Rev wrote:
Blacksmith wrote:Turkey has legal government discrimination against the Alawites.


Wouldn't that be a problem when seeking admission to the EU?


:lol:

Most of the EU does not have a Ministry of Religion that requires mandatory religious training every Monday. There is no such thing as freedom of religion in an Arab or Islamic state. It might be in the Constitution in theory but it is never practiced in reality. Defame the beliefs of the ones in power and they will lock you up and throw away the keys.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/defaul ... 2010-12-13

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... ic-values/


But they are seeking admission to the EU and I swear such things are required. Will they never be allowed in?


Two different questions. Freedom of Religion is not required for acquis communautaire:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acquis_communautaire

and Turkey may never get admitted:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_ ... ion#Future

You bring up a good point though. Turkey has steered clear of involving in religious issues in the past as best they could. They stepped in it big time here though. While the West will do the whole HNE/SNE/SNE thing everyone else in the region will notice they picked a side.
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Postby phil_in_cs » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:11 am

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ ... 3-08-06-13
Syria says will use chemical weapons if attacked

By PAUL SCHEMM and BEN HUBBARD
Associated Press

BEIRUT (AP) -- The Syrian regime threatened Monday to use its chemical and biological weapons in case of a foreign attack, in its first ever acknowledgement that it possesses weapons of mass destruction.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Jihad Makdissi stressed, however, that Damascus would not use its unconventional arms against its own citizens. The announcement comes as Syria faces international isolation, a tenacious rebellion that has left at least 19,000 people dead and threats by Israel to attack to prevent such weapons from falling into rebel hands.

Syria's decision to reveal the long suspected existence of its chemical weapons suggests a desperate regime deeply shaken by an increasingly bold revolt that has scored a string of successes in the past week, including a stunning bomb attack that killed four high-level security officials, the capture of several border crossings and sustained offensives on the regime strongholds of Damascus and Aleppo.


Much more at the link.
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We're gonna need a bigger boat!

Postby Evan the Diplomat » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:47 am

majorhavoc wrote:
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A bit long in the tooth, for a warship.
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Guess they have a few till working....


Two navies can play that game:

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I was listening to the BBC last night, they said 50,000 Russians live in Syria! A Turkish newspaper estimated almost 30,000. Even if the number were 10,000 that's still a huge population to move.
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Postby Blacksmith » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:03 pm

Looks like playing the WMD/ Slime card has given a potential "intervention" force some pause. I don't think anyone expected him to throw it out there like that.

If the Western powers start bombing he could slime Israel and then they will jump in there. AQ and Israel on the same side? It is starting to get surreal.
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Postby Blacksmith » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:26 pm

Ok I find this irony hilarious. NBC wants to send guns to the Syrian Rebels.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012 ... n-conflict?
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Postby phil_in_cs » Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:28 am

Lot's of folks sending guns already
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/ ... JM20120727

(Reuters) - Turkey has set up a secret base with allies Saudi Arabia and Qatar to direct vital military and communications aid to Syria's rebels from a city near the border, Gulf sources have told Reuters.

News of the clandestine Middle East-run "nerve centre" working to topple Syrian President Bashar al-Assad underlines the extent to which Western powers - who played a key role in unseating Muammar Gaddafi in Libya - have avoided military involvement so far in Syria.

"It's the Turks who are militarily controlling it. Turkey is the main co-ordinator/facilitator. Think of a triangle, with Turkey at the top and Saudi Arabia and Qatar at the bottom," said a Doha-based source.

"The Americans are very hands-off on this. U.S. intel(ligence) are working through middlemen. Middlemen are controlling access to weapons and routes."

The centre in Adana, a city in southern Turkey about 100 km (60 miles) from the Syrian border, was set up after Saudi Deputy Foreign Minister Prince Abdulaziz bin Abdullah al-Saud visited Turkey and requested it, a source in the Gulf said. The Turks liked the idea of having the base in Adana so that they could supervise its operations, he added.


More at the link
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Postby jackal556 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:34 pm

I've seen some new-looking AK-100 series in the hands of the FSA. Months earlier, they had hunting rifles and shotguns. Could these weapons have come from defectors? I've also been amazed by some of the images of T-72s that are totally destroyed. (In BDA parlance, catastrophic kills).
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Postby dogbane » Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:57 pm

Blacksmith wrote:Ok I find this irony hilarious. NBC wants to send guns to the Syrian Rebels.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012 ... n-conflict?

I didn't see anything in that article about NBC (or reporter Richard Engel) wanting to send guns to the Syrian rebels.

I'll just chalk your comment up as your own editorializing.
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Postby Blacksmith » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:05 pm

They have now abandoned all pretenses. The Base is now running the show in Syria.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ju ... ttle-syria

They try to hide their presence. "Some people are worried about carrying the [black] flags," said Abu Khuder. "They fear America will come and fight us. So we fight in secret. Why give Bashar and the west a pretext?" But their existence is common knowledge in Mohassen. Even passers-by joke with the men about car bombs and IEDs.

According to Abu Khuder, his men are working closely with the military council that commands the Free Syrian Army brigades in the region. "We meet almost every day," he said. "We have clear instructions from our [al-Qaida] leadership that if the FSA need our help we should give it. We help them with IEDs and car bombs. Our main talent is in the bombing operations." Abu Khuder's men had a lot of experience in bomb-making from Iraq and elsewhere, he added.
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Postby Valarius » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:10 pm

On the subject of guns getting to Free Syria Army fighters;

-CBS news reported last night that rebels had finally overrun a police station after two days of solid fighting in a town not far from the city of Aleppo. Footage showed crates of AK ammo, artillery rounds and an artillery cannon, and ten tanks. Rebels were figuring out how to use them on government forces when a fighter jet started a bombing run.

-In news reports from Al-Jazeera, coverage of the FSA fighers includes them using what looked like FN-FALs and Steyr AUG rifles. There was also a news report of them using an M-16 with a... SUSAT? scope on top as a makeshift sniper rifle. They prefer Russian weapons as ammo is far more common.

-The Guardian has reported that in the last hour, rebels have apparently captured another tank. BBC showed footage of the same thing last night.

-FSA has said that Al-Qaeda and other "religious groups" had lots of money to give, but that they were refusing to donate any to sectarian, Christian or unaligned Muslim brigades in country. This has pissed off the FSA. FSA has become more and more unified and is now operating under a Joint Command, according to Al-Jazeera news.

I don't have any links because I just can't find them. New reports erase the old ones as soon as they come in.


EDIT: in one of the police stations overrun, Youtube footage apparently showed a torture device known as the "flying carpet". You strap someone down and fold them in half. Wonderful. Youtube took the video down, or someone else did.
Last edited by Valarius on Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Postby Ad'lan » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:17 pm

Valarius wrote:-In news reports from Al-Jazeera, coverage of the FSA fighers includes them using what looked like FN-FALs and Steyr AUG rifles. There was also a news report of them using an M-16 with a... SUSAT? scope on top as a makeshift sniper rifle. They prefer Russian weapons as ammo is far more common.


SUSAT as in British Army Issue SUSAT? Sight unit small arms Trilux? Weird. I mean, we're putting American Style rails and all sorts on the L85A2 now, so I can imagine it's entirely possible they fitted a SUSAT from that to an M16.... I just don't understand why. 5.56 and a 4x zoom for a sniper rifle? Must be really make shift, or more likely, a reporter seeing something they thought was a scope making stuff up. More likely they would be using the Tritium illumination to help spotting in low light conditions, but even then. Ah well.
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Postby Valarius » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:26 pm

Ad'lan wrote:
Valarius wrote:-In news reports from Al-Jazeera, coverage of the FSA fighers includes them using what looked like FN-FALs and Steyr AUG rifles. There was also a news report of them using an M-16 with a... SUSAT? scope on top as a makeshift sniper rifle. They prefer Russian weapons as ammo is far more common.


SUSAT as in British Army Issue SUSAT? Sight unit small arms Trilux? Weird. I mean, we're putting American Style rails and all sorts on the L85A2 now, so I can imagine it's entirely possible they fitted a SUSAT from that to an M16.... I just don't understand why. 5.56 and a 4x zoom for a sniper rifle? Must be really make shift, or more likely, a reporter seeing something they thought was a scope making stuff up. More likely they would be using the Tritium illumination to help spotting in low light conditions, but even then. Ah well.


Might not be SUSAT. I saw a small round tube for their scope. No rubber pieces or anything to indicate what it was. The reporter didn't even comment on it.
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Postby Blacksmith » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:41 pm

Valarius wrote:
Ad'lan wrote:
Valarius wrote:-In news reports from Al-Jazeera, coverage of the FSA fighers includes them using what looked like FN-FALs and Steyr AUG rifles. There was also a news report of them using an M-16 with a... SUSAT? scope on top as a makeshift sniper rifle. They prefer Russian weapons as ammo is far more common.


SUSAT as in British Army Issue SUSAT? Sight unit small arms Trilux? Weird. I mean, we're putting American Style rails and all sorts on the L85A2 now, so I can imagine it's entirely possible they fitted a SUSAT from that to an M16.... I just don't understand why. 5.56 and a 4x zoom for a sniper rifle? Must be really make shift, or more likely, a reporter seeing something they thought was a scope making stuff up. More likely they would be using the Tritium illumination to help spotting in low light conditions, but even then. Ah well.


Might not be SUSAT. I saw a small round tube for their scope. No rubber pieces or anything to indicate what it was. The reporter didn't even comment on it.


Are we really trying to make sense of what a poorly trained militiaman with limited experience and resources is putting on his rifle? It was probably all he had and just knew he looked like Bruce Willis.
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Postby Valarius » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:33 am

No. But I try to be a gun nut, and I'm curious whether the rebels are salvaging significant amounts of NATO weapons from defeated government forces. The M-16 is particularly weird, since the United States has a long-standing trade embargo against Syria.

Anyway I'll stop derailing the thread. More real-time information can be found at the Brown Moses blog, including weapons.

http://brown-moses.blogspot.co.uk/2012/ ... yrian.html
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Postby Blacksmith » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:55 am

Valarius wrote:No. But I try to be a gun nut, and I'm curious whether the rebels are salvaging significant amounts of NATO weapons from defeated government forces. The M-16 is particularly weird, since the United States has a long-standing trade embargo against Syria.

Anyway I'll stop derailing the thread. More real-time information can be found at the Brown Moses blog, including weapons.

http://brown-moses.blogspot.co.uk/2012/ ... yrian.html


Yeah, but not against Turkey....

Also let us not forget how many M16s we gave Iraq. Some impoverished battalion commander there would never sell a few right? I would be curious to see the serial number though.
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Postby Evan the Diplomat » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:54 am

Valarius wrote:No. But I try to be a gun nut, and I'm curious whether the rebels are salvaging significant amounts of NATO weapons from defeated government forces. The M-16 is particularly weird, since the United States has a long-standing trade embargo against Syria.

Anyway I'll stop derailing the thread. More real-time information can be found at the Brown Moses blog, including weapons.

http://brown-moses.blogspot.co.uk/2012/ ... yrian.html


It is not uncommon in many developing countries for police and military units to have different weaponry for various reasons. One is to prevent coups or civil uprisings.

For example in Venezuela, Chavez switched from the FN-FAL to the AK-103, the FALs went to his "popular militias." The elite SF units had M-16s or M-4s when they were training with the US.

Back when Venezuela was a more federalized system, the various state police forces bought their own long rifles, M-16s for the most part. A lot of those were seized from state police armories for "serial number verification" and never returned them if the state governors were not Chavistas, of even in some case where they were but seen as pretenders to replacing Chavez.
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Postby Valarius » Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:00 am

Breaking news from Al-Jazeera: Syrian army fires on refugees and Jordan guards, injures 3

A Jordanian soldier and two Syrian refugees were injured early on Thursday in a clash sparked when Syrian soldiers opened fire on Jordanian patrols waiting to take in people fleeing the conflict in Syria, a security and medical sources said.

The 20-minute battle on the Syrian-Jordanian border was the third such clash in less than a week and was started by Syria as Jordanian forces were preparing to receive 400 Syrian refugees, a Jordanian security official said.

Medical sources at a government-run hospital in the nearby city of Ramtha said authorities transported three men with gunshot wounds for treatment, two of them believed to be Syrian nationals who were injured when crossing into Jordan.

The third injured man was a Jordanian soldier, the security official said. Residents in the Jordanian border village of al-Turra reported hearing gunshots and heavy artillery during the clashes.


Unlike Turkey, Jordan is not a NATO member. But it is in the Arab League. So between shooting at a Turkish plane and this, the Syrian government is headed for a world of hurt.

Second news edit, from Al-Jazeera's live blog: http://blogs.aljazeera.com/liveblog/topic/syria-153

Rebels in Syria on Thursday bombarded the Menagh air base that was being used by helicopter gunships and other warplanes to attack the northern city of Aleppo, sources said.


Things are moving quickly.





In regards to guns: yes. There are a LOT of South American countries that have/had American arms delievered in past decades. As there are some Asian countries as well. But I thought Syria was a completely different case. It's an image thing, really. We're saying we're giving "non-lethal" aid to rebels, and then an M-16 pops up in a cameraman's footage?
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Postby Tater Raider » Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:43 am

Valarius wrote:In regards to guns: yes. There are a LOT of South American countries that have/had American arms delievered in past decades. As there are some Asian countries as well. But I thought Syria was a completely different case. It's an image thing, really. We're saying we're giving "non-lethal" aid to rebels, and then an M-16 pops up in a cameraman's footage?

Maybe we didn't give the bullets? If so, it's an assault club. :oh:
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Postby phil_in_cs » Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:39 am

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IT's Official - US Force an option in Iran

Postby Blacksmith » Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:39 am

In happier news for US Marines Panetta says US Force is an option

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Everyone is all smiles as Pannetta tells a good one about the US Air Force pilots being replaced by thousands of Predator drones.

U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta said Wednesday that Iran must either negotiate acceptable limits on its nuclear program or face the possibility of U.S. military action to stop it from getting the bomb.

Panetta made his remarks outside the city of Ashkelon in southern Israel, with an "Iron Dome" anti-rocket defense system as a backdrop.

The Pentagon chief said repeatedly that "all options," including military force, are on the table to stop Iran, should sanctions and diplomacy -- the preferred means of persuasion -- ultimately fail.

He said he still hopes Iran will see that negotiations are the best way out of this crisis.

However, Panetta said, "If they continue and if they proceed with a nuclear weapon, ... we have options that we are prepared to implement to ensure that that does not happen."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/08 ... z22OGQbjB5

This is a little shift here marking the first time the US has says it will bomb Iran to keep it from making bombs. Because if Iran had the bomb than the US could not bomb them. Which really removes all doubt as to why Iran wants the bomb.

Israel says "The US said we could so it must be ok"

"I see an ayatollah regime that declares what it has championed: to destroy us," Netanyahu said. "It's working to destroy us, it's preparing nuclear weapons to destroy us. ... If it is up to me, I won't let that happen."

With "matters that have to do with our destiny, with our very existence, we do not put our faith in the hands of others, even our best of friends," Netanyahu said, hinting that Israel might act alone despite American misgivings.

Netanyahu said both Romney and Obama have said "Israel has the right to defend itself."


So if Iran wins the challenge of weaponizing nukes they will get the immunity idol and be safe for another decade or so.

While the U.S. is closely coordinating with Israel on all its Iran activities, including the negotiations via the European Union–led P5+1 group, there’s an unmistakable gap — at least publicly — between the two sides when it comes to redlines that would trigger military action. President Obama has made clear that he would be willing to bomb Iran to prevent it from building nuclear weapons. Of course, the international consensus is that Iran is using the cover of its nuclear-energy program to steadily assemble the infrastructure to build nuclear weapons but has not moved to weaponize nuclear material, or even taken a strategic decision to do so. Thus President Obama’s insistence that there’s still plenty of time for sanctions to make the difference.

Israeli leaders, however, have publicly laid out a different redline, based on Israel’s more limited military capabilities. Defense Minister Ehud Barak, for example, has insisted that Iran’s nuclear program can’t be allowed to enter a “zone of immunity,” where, even if it hasn’t moved to weaponize nuclear material, it has placed enough of its nuclear infrastructure inside the hardened facility at Fordow, buried deep in a mountainside near Qom, to put it beyond the reach of Israel’s aerial-bombardment capabilities. Although the “zone of immunity” is a fuzzy indicator with no time line attached, the implication is that Israel will have to strike before Iran reaches that point or else forfeit its own military option for dealing with Tehran’s nuclear program.


Panetta told reporters that “it is the wrong characterization to say we’re going to be discussing potential attack plans. What we’re discussing are various contingencies and how we would respond.” Well, yes. And President Obama, soon after taking office, replaced the term global war on terror with overseas contingency operations. In practical terms, that may be a distinction without a difference.


Obama himself appears unable to entertain any compromise on the enrichment issue in an election year, which is why there is little prospect of any nuclear deal before November. The sanctions are certainly having a painful effect in Iran, but what’s less clear is whether or not this economic pain will force Iran to capitulate on the nuclear issue — and that’s a question unlikely to be answered this year.


Read more: http://world.time.com/2012/08/01/new-sa ... z22OJgn4M9

The idea that sanctions will work in Iran after they failed to produce in meaningful results in Iraq after 11 years would be laughable if not so sad. The laundry list of failed programs of sanction policy is amazing. Dictatorships don't give a shit if their people suffer they just become more brutal and dictatorial. Apparently we have failed to learn a single thing in the last 230 years.

Iran is getting ready:

Iran’s supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei told top Iranian military chiefs to expect “war within weeks,” at a recent war council meeting, according to Israeli news outlet DebkaFile.

“While retaliation had been exhaustively drilled in regular military exercises in the past year, Khamenei ordered the biggest fortification project in Iran’s history to save its nuclear program from even the mightiest of America’s super-weapons. Rocks are being gathered from afar, piled on key nuclear installations, covered with many tons of poured concrete and finally plated with steel,” states the report.

Despite more substantive reports speculating that any decision to attack Iran on behalf of Israel had been delayed until spring 2013, a parallel narrative that a military strike could take place in September or October has been doing the rounds more recently.

Whether the DebkaFile report is accurate or not, Iran has finalized preparations for conflict with its recent announcement that plans for closing the Strait of Hormuz, a key choke point through which 33% of the world’s oil shipments pass every day, are now complete.


Video at link
[YouTube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE5c_9re ... r_embedded
[/YouTube]
http://www.infowars.com/iranian-ayatoll ... hin-weeks/

My money says: US intel reports will apparently all state that Iran has no chance of getting the bomb until either right before the election (if poll numbers are way down) or until right after the US election (if poll numbers are way up). One way or another this thing is inevitable.
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Postby Blacksmith » Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:33 pm

The PM of Syria defected to Jordan. This is a major PR blow. Terrorists set off a bomb in the government controlled TV station building. The sharks are still circling...
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Re: Civil Unrest In Middle Eastern Arab States

Postby Blacksmith » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:27 pm

Iran has stated that they will not allow Syria to fall.

Yes, they called themselves Axis. :o

Iran's security chief has told President Bashar al-Assad that Syria is part of a vital regional alliance that Tehran will not allow to be broken.

During talks in Damascus, Saeed Jalili said Syria was an essential part of an "axis of resistance".

The statement came a day after Syrian Prime Minister Riad Hijab defected to the opposition.

Syrian TV showed President Assad greeting Mr Jalili, his first TV appearance in two weeks.

President Assad was last seen on state TV on 22 July - four days after a bomb killed four security chiefs in Damascus - leading to speculation about his health and whereabouts.



Ok, as if things could not get any crazier Iran has now stated that kidnapping is unacceptable (of innocent people lol). Then they want to hold the US responsible for the safety of the "pilgrims" who had the good sense to go on a pilgrimage into a war zone. Even though the US is not known to have a single force in the country.

Mr Jalili, who heads Iran's supreme national security council and is considered a senior aide to Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, told reporters that "kidnapping innocent people is not acceptable anywhere", Iran's official news agency Irna reported.

Iran's Deputy Foreign Minister Hossein Amir Abdollahian has said it holds the US responsible for the hostages' safety.

He said the US was supporting "terrorist groups" and despatching weapons to Syria, and was therefore responsible for the lives of those abducted.


:roll:
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