squinty wrote: Is that the one where security video from inside a courthouse shows police (or deputies or bailiffs) getting mowed down one after the other as they ran out of the courthouse doors to engage the shooter, and got shot just as they exited the doors? Depressing stuff.
Yes, armored rifle man vs. multiple police officers with hand guns as well as a passerby CCWH with handgun. After that I started carrying a powerful semi-auto rifle in my vehicle where legal. That would not have helped me in a movie theater though.
The dead go on before us they Are sitting in God's house in comfort We shall see them face to face--
proteus wrote:Words cant express the sadness, rage, fury, righteous indignation, and about a dozen other feelings I have towards the situation. Its truly sad that in this day and age people would do this to innocent people just watching a movie...
You said it brother.
The shooter may may be a complete paranoid whack job, but what he did was premeditated. I can imagine all manner of cruel and unusual punishment for this waste of human tissue.
Priests and cannibals, prehistoric animals Everybody happy as the dead come home
Big black nemesis, parthenogenesis No-one move a muscle as the dead come home
An honest question to those on this forum who are combat trained/experienced; what were you trained to do in a situation exactly like this where all odds were not in your favor in a firefight?
ninja-elbow wrote:An honest question to those on this forum who are combat trained/experienced; what were you trained to do in a situation exactly like this where all odds were not in your favor in a firefight?
In the Navy (I know.... Navy ) when I was on the M8 boats and we were training with the Marines for the big landing on Kuwait, we were taught and trained to do some things while in combat. In a mass conflag aka "everything is fucked up", more than likely my boat got shot and sank on a hot beach, we were taught to stop, reassess, look for our/a commander/PIC (probably the nearest Marine that looked like they knew what they were doing) and come up with a new plan in regards to our situation. You cannot fight your way out of an ambush with just bravery and internet talk. You need to think, you need to act smart, you need to focus what resources you've got and exploit the situation. Getting killed is just not my goal. I do not train to go out in a blaze of glory. I train to win and live and stop the threat.
Sports and games? No big deal the whole winning and losing thing. Gun fight? I want to win and live.
ninja-elbow wrote:An honest question to those on this forum who are combat trained/experienced; what were you trained to do in a situation exactly like this where all odds were not in your favor in a firefight?
What I've been taught, and I'm 99% sure the rest of the military community has roughly the same standard..."fight until you no longer have the means to resist". The code of conduct mentions nothing of "overwhelming odds". If that means dying, so be it. Add to that, "I will never surrender of my own free will".
The last true bayonet charge was led by an Army Captain in Korea, when the Chinese were swarming what is now Osan AB, ROK. The army guys had been plinking Chinese soldiers all day...ammo ran low at first, so they had to make there shots count. Then it ran out. The Chinese continued to pile on. The Army Captain, knowing they must have thinned the ranks of the Commies, ordered his men to fix bayonets, and successfully repelled the Chinese advance.
This scenario is kind of hard to comprehend though, from a military perspective...
Last edited by angelofwar on Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
TDW586 wrote:Depends on the mission. What is the Commander's Intent? What is my role? Those are the questions you have to ask from a military perspective.
Sent from my Nexus One using Tapatalk 2
In regards to that my mission was to cover Marines on the beach with my M2 so they could get on it and win the fight. Barring that I was basically cannon fodder if I could not get on another boat and the fuck off the beach.
What are the taught dynamics in an ambush though? When you get ambushed you A) ? B) ? C) ?
ninja-elbow wrote:An honest question to those on this forum who are combat trained/experienced; what were you trained to do in a situation exactly like this where all odds were not in your favor in a firefight?
No firefight is ever in ideal circumstances...this is where training is vital. You train in order to overcome crappy situations. I have never trained for a mass-murderer in a movie theater but i have training in low-light and with distraction and for hostage situations and in a number of other less then ideal circumstances. It can make the difference and then again it may not...As with most military situations its all situationally dependent. Just my .02
TDW586 wrote:Depends on the mission. What is the Commander's Intent? What is my role? Those are the questions you have to ask from a military perspective.
Sent from my Nexus One using Tapatalk 2
In regards to that my mission was to cover Marines on the beach with my M2 so they could get on it and win the fight. Barring that I was basically cannon fodder if I could not get on another boat and the fuck off the beach.
What are the taught dynamics in an ambush though? When you get ambushed you A) ? B) ? C) ?
In its most basic form at least in the Army it would become a react to contact drill:
Battle Drill #2: React to Contact (Platoon/Squad) (7-3/4-D103)
� TASK. React to Contact (Platoon/Squad) (7-3/4-D103).
CONDITIONS. The platoon/squad is halting or moving. The enemy initiates fires on the platoon/squad with an individual or crew-served weapon.
STANDARDS. 1. The unit returns fire immediately. 2. The unit locates and engages the enemy with well-aimed fire, and causes at least one enemy casualty. 3. The leader can point out at least one half of the enemy positions and identify the types of weapons (such as small arms, light machine gun).
PERFORMANCE MEASURES. 1. Soldiers SEE through AN/PVS-7B/4 and immediately take up the nearest covered positions.
2. Soldiers SEE the enemy positions and enemy weapons muzzle flashes through their AN/PVS-7B/4 and use their AN/PAQ-4 to return well-aimed fires at the target within three seconds.
3. Squad leader locates known or suspected enemy positions and marks left and right limits with the hand-held laser pointer, and passes information to the squad/platoon leader.
4. Fire team leaders control fires by using the standard fire commands (initial and supplemental). Team leaders use AN/PAQ-4 and BOIs (based on distance) to control fires, and illuminate engagement areas by using ir ground flares. The fire commands are as follows: a. Alert. b. Direction. c. Description of target. d. Range. e. Method of Fire (manipulation, and rate of fire). f. Command to commence firing.
5. Soldiers SEE and maintain contact with other soldiers on their left and right using AN/PVS-7B/4. Mark soldiers IAW unit SOP.
6. Soldiers maintain contact with their team leaders and indicate the location of the enemy using the AN/PAQ-4 and AN/PVS-7B.
7. Leaders check the status of their personnel through voice commands and AN/PVS-7B.
8. The squad/team leaders maintain contact with the platoon/squad leader through the AN/PVS-7B.
9. The platoon/squad leader moves up to the squad/team in contact and links up with its leader. a. The platoon leader brings his RTO, platoon FO, the squad leader of the nearest squad, and one machine gun team. b. The squad leader of the trail squad moves to the front of his lead fire team. c. The platoon sergeant and weapons squad leader move forward with the second machine gun team and link up with the platoon leader, ready to assume control of the base of fire element.
10. The platoon/squad leader determines whether or not his platoon/squad must move out of the engagement area.
11. The platoon/squad leader determines whether or not he can gain and maintain suppressive fires with the element already in contact (based on the volume and accuracy of the enemy fires against the element in contact).
12. The platoon/squad leader makes an assessment of the situation. He identifies: a. The location of the enemy position and obstacles guiding on the hand-held laser, and AN/PAQ-4 from the squad/team in contact. b. The size of the enemy force by assessing the enemy's volume of fire, and muzzle flashes looking through his AN/PVS-7B (the number of enemy automatic weapons, the presence of any vehicles and the employment of indirect fire are indicators of the enemy's strength). c. Vulnerable flanks. d. Covered and concealed flanking routes to the enemy position.
13. Determines the next course of action (for example, fire and movement, assault, breach, knock out bunker, enter and clear a building or trench).
14. The platoon/squad leader reports the situation to the company commander/platoon leader and begins to maneuver the unit.
15. The platoon/squad leader calls for and adjusts indirect fire (mortars or artillery). (Squad leaders relay requests through the platoon leader.)
16. Leaders relay all commands and signals from the platoon chain of command.
ninja-elbow wrote:An honest question to those on this forum who are combat trained/experienced; what were you trained to do in a situation exactly like this where all odds were not in your favor in a firefight?
What I've been taught, and I'm 99% sure the rest of the military community has roughly the same standard..."fight until you no longer have the means to resist". The code of conduct mentions nothing of "overwhelming odds". If that means dying, so be it. Add to that, "I will never surrender of my own free will".
Really? You are not trained to assess the situation? I was never taught that by Navy or Marines. Even some dumb-ass deck ape like me was taught to follow my orders until they 'aint coming any more and then to assess and overcome.
TDW586 wrote:Depends on the mission. What is the Commander's Intent? What is my role? Those are the questions you have to ask from a military perspective.
Sent from my Nexus One using Tapatalk 2
In regards to that my mission was to cover Marines on the beach with my M2 so they could get on it and win the fight. Barring that I was basically cannon fodder if I could not get on another boat and the fuck off the beach.
What are the taught dynamics in an ambush though? When you get ambushed you A) ? B) ? C) ?
In its most basic form at least in the Army it would become a react to contact drill:
Battle Drill #2: React to Contact (Platoon/Squad) (7-3/4-D103)
� TASK. React to Contact (Platoon/Squad) (7-3/4-D103).
CONDITIONS. The platoon/squad is halting or moving. The enemy initiates fires on the platoon/squad with an individual or crew-served weapon.
STANDARDS. 1. The unit returns fire immediately. 2. The unit locates and engages the enemy with well-aimed fire, and causes at least one enemy casualty. 3. The leader can point out at least one half of the enemy positions and identify the types of weapons (such as small arms, light machine gun).
PERFORMANCE MEASURES. 1. Soldiers SEE through AN/PVS-7B/4 and immediately take up the nearest covered positions.
2. Soldiers SEE the enemy positions and enemy weapons muzzle flashes through their AN/PVS-7B/4 and use their AN/PAQ-4 to return well-aimed fires at the target within three seconds.
3. Squad leader locates known or suspected enemy positions and marks left and right limits with the hand-held laser pointer, and passes information to the squad/platoon leader.
4. Fire team leaders control fires by using the standard fire commands (initial and supplemental). Team leaders use AN/PAQ-4 and BOIs (based on distance) to control fires, and illuminate engagement areas by using ir ground flares. The fire commands are as follows: a. Alert. b. Direction. c. Description of target. d. Range. e. Method of Fire (manipulation, and rate of fire). f. Command to commence firing.
5. Soldiers SEE and maintain contact with other soldiers on their left and right using AN/PVS-7B/4. Mark soldiers IAW unit SOP.
6. Soldiers maintain contact with their team leaders and indicate the location of the enemy using the AN/PAQ-4 and AN/PVS-7B.
7. Leaders check the status of their personnel through voice commands and AN/PVS-7B.
8. The squad/team leaders maintain contact with the platoon/squad leader through the AN/PVS-7B.
9. The platoon/squad leader moves up to the squad/team in contact and links up with its leader. a. The platoon leader brings his RTO, platoon FO, the squad leader of the nearest squad, and one machine gun team. b. The squad leader of the trail squad moves to the front of his lead fire team. c. The platoon sergeant and weapons squad leader move forward with the second machine gun team and link up with the platoon leader, ready to assume control of the base of fire element.
10. The platoon/squad leader determines whether or not his platoon/squad must move out of the engagement area.
11. The platoon/squad leader determines whether or not he can gain and maintain suppressive fires with the element already in contact (based on the volume and accuracy of the enemy fires against the element in contact).
12. The platoon/squad leader makes an assessment of the situation. He identifies: a. The location of the enemy position and obstacles guiding on the hand-held laser, and AN/PAQ-4 from the squad/team in contact. b. The size of the enemy force by assessing the enemy's volume of fire, and muzzle flashes looking through his AN/PVS-7B (the number of enemy automatic weapons, the presence of any vehicles and the employment of indirect fire are indicators of the enemy's strength). c. Vulnerable flanks. d. Covered and concealed flanking routes to the enemy position.
13. Determines the next course of action (for example, fire and movement, assault, breach, knock out bunker, enter and clear a building or trench).
14. The platoon/squad leader reports the situation to the company commander/platoon leader and begins to maneuver the unit.
15. The platoon/squad leader calls for and adjusts indirect fire (mortars or artillery). (Squad leaders relay requests through the platoon leader.)
16. Leaders relay all commands and signals from the platoon chain of command.
TDW586 wrote:Depends on the mission. What is the Commander's Intent? What is my role? Those are the questions you have to ask from a military perspective.
Sent from my Nexus One using Tapatalk 2
In regards to that my mission was to cover Marines on the beach with my M2 so they could get on it and win the fight. Barring that I was basically cannon fodder if I could not get on another boat and the fuck off the beach.
What are the taught dynamics in an ambush though? When you get ambushed you A) ? B) ? C) ?
1) Take Cover 2) Asses 3) Out maneuver/flank 4) Engage 5) Secure
Granted, there are thousands of other steps that go hand in hand with these, depending on circumstance, but that's the meat and potatoes (and assuming you have the means to engage)
This armor thing is making me think maybe 7.62x25 tok is a better carry weapon :X
Owner, Messina's Front Line Survival Gear - website at http://www.flsgear.com! Blog: flsgear.wordpress.com (mostly inactive) Twitter: twitter.com/mmessina_author (active, not biz related) Facebook: http://on.fb.me/foPFgx (very active) Also part-time sci-fi author - http://amzn.to/vYUbTw
ninja-elbow wrote:An honest question to those on this forum who are combat trained/experienced; what were you trained to do in a situation exactly like this where all odds were not in your favor in a firefight?
What I've been taught, and I'm 99% sure the rest of the military community has roughly the same standard..."fight until you no longer have the means to resist". The code of conduct mentions nothing of "overwhelming odds". If that means dying, so be it. Add to that, "I will never surrender of my own free will".
Really? You are not trained to assess the situation? I was never taught that by Navy or Marines. Even some dumb-ass deck ape like me was taught to follow my orders until they 'aint coming any more and then to assess and overcome.
Didn't know you wanted such a detailed assesment, but, it seems I already guessed that by my second answer. Sorry for the "broad" answer.
TDW586 wrote:Depends on the mission. What is the Commander's Intent? What is my role? Those are the questions you have to ask from a military perspective.
Sent from my Nexus One using Tapatalk 2
In regards to that my mission was to cover Marines on the beach with my M2 so they could get on it and win the fight. Barring that I was basically cannon fodder if I could not get on another boat and the fuck off the beach.
What are the taught dynamics in an ambush though? When you get ambushed you A) ? B) ? C) ?
1) Take Cover 2) Asses 3) Out maneuver/flank 4) Engage 5) Secure
Granted, there are thousands of other steps that go hand in hand with these, depending on circumstance, but that's the meat and potatoes (and assuming you have the means to engage)
That makes sense. Thank you too. I knew there were procedures and "code". Again, I was a deck ape that happened to pull machine gun duty on an M8 in Persian Gulf Senior. Was a long time ago.
flsgear wrote:This armor thing is making me think maybe 7.62x25 tok is a better carry weapon :X
This reminds me of a few things I read on the blogosphere...people saying that it "wouldn't have mattered if some-one else had a gun (concealed carry), since he had armour on". Armour or no, you get hit, you're going to be incapacitated for a few seconds at the least...assuming the good guy with the gun isn't a marksman that can put one in his head. Body armour merely allows you to survive the "event"...
There is standard training for us that dictates if SHTF and you are in a gunfight, after three rounds your opponent is still engaging, you have one of two problems; 1) Your opponent is wearing body armor. Adjust fire to face or groin INSTEAD of center of mass. 2) You missed three times. YOU SUCK! We offered you free practice ammo every month, but you blew us off.
Consider; the female victim who survived a similar shooting in Toronto had a boyfriend. As I understand it, they tried running. She got hit first in the legs, then he. When he turned to check on her, she caught a round in the head. Mindless running is not a defense.
The gun is not a panacea. It is an option. You can choose how to use it.
That sure looks like an AR15 to me.
My son, you will travel far, but never be alone, for I am with you, my M14 and battle axe comfort you.
Even if I were not LEO, I know enough to not mindlessly run away, especially with family in tow. I would make a tactical retreat. Assuming the threat was making itself known, I would instruct my wife to remove the kids post-haste while I distracted the threat. I would keep tabs on their location while I moved to points of cover while I watched the doorways I just left. Odds are the active shooter is coming through those doors. I would continue with this tactic until we got to the car and departed.
I'm sure someone will opine "Jor-El! Why aren't you trying to protect innocent lives?"
Sorry. Charity begins at home. Family trumps strangers, no matter how noble. Once my family is NOT endangered, then I will act accordingly.
My son, you will travel far, but never be alone, for I am with you, my M14 and battle axe comfort you.
ninja-elbow wrote:An honest question to those on this forum who are combat trained/experienced; what were you trained to do in a situation exactly like this where all odds were not in your favor in a firefight? ... What are the taught dynamics in an ambush though? When you get ambushed you A) ? B) ? C) ?
Our Imediate Action Drill for a "near ambush" (closer than 50m) was to assault through.
As applied to this situation, I think 'open fire' would be the right course of action. See evil? Shoot evil.
Granted there are always other factors. As Dave mentioned, nobody could tell if he was wearing armor.
GIVEN: You go to a midnight movie openning with family/friends. Movie starts, everyone is enthrawled, cuz it's EPIC. Terrorist BG in mask and armor shoots up Gotham, Batman arrives. In front of you, black-clad dude with flaming-red dye-job answers phone, steps out exit. Fuck him, my phone is off, let all the servers crash! Back to the movie! Moments later, black-clad dude in gas mask steps in through exit door, tosses can of smoke or tear gas into crowd, and fires shotgun into air, then crowd. After emptying the 870, he transitions to the S&W AR he has slung, firing most of his 100rd(?) magazine before the weapon jams. He drops it and walks away, exiting the same door.
CONSIDERATIONS: My wife would likely be with me, MAYBE my oldest son, if he begged hard enough, but not likely. Perhaps we went with friends, and maybe even one of my other friends that generally carries.
ASSESSMENT: BG has heavier weapons, utilized rapid domination techniques, and his attire blends with the dark theatre. I have a duty to my wife and friends to get their asses to safety, but I also have a duty to try to stop this jackhole from killing people. Everyone's movement is restricted because theatres are slow to empty when people are thinking straight.
RESPONSE(hopefully): Get as clear a shot as you can, and hope you can drop him.
I know it sounds simplistic, and there is smoke, gas, screaming people, and incoming fire to deal with ON TOP OF the fact that your SO/wife is right next to you, and your friends, and you don't want to draw fire toward them, but here's my line of thinking...
-Tossing gas/smoke may have escaped your notice. It's dark.
-One gunshot may be a car backfiring, but a 12ga in a closed room is loud, even when competing with an on-screen war.
-Two gunshots means your ass is on the clock, since somebody nearby must be shooting something or someone.
-If the shots are directed toward you and yours, or the mass of people you are in, what is the quickest, most pro-active way to ensure their safety?
Answer: Shoot to eliminate the threat.
Yeah, that simple. The same thing you're taught in most LE/self-defense shooting courses.
You are threatened, identify the threat, put rounds into threat until threat stops being.
At this point, your level and type of training will have a lot to do with how fast you respond to this threat, and the particulars of your preparation will either work out well, or not. I have a fair level of faith that mine would have at least some success, as the only carry gun I have is a G35 with night sights. So, if I can see muzzle flashes, and maybe identify a tuft of red hair, I have 16 rounds of .40 before I'm done. As Jor-El said, if you put a few center mass, to no effect, adjust fire. Head, groin, legs, arms, whatever you can get a result from. I think I might run 2-shot increments, but thats just a though. Really, 2 rounds of .40 center-mass should cause a flinch, at least, if I hit him, even in plates. So, if 2 rounds show a hit, but not a stop, I think I'd walk my shots up, trying for the head/throat. If 2 rounds don't even get a flinch, my rounds must be going over(under would at least hit legs) so I think I'd start walking the rounds down...
And, yes, I realize this puts my wife/friends that are with me in just as much danger of return fire as it puts me. Big gamble? Yes. I just think you're best off responding as quickly and decisively as you can.
Assault through the ambush.
Kill that stupid MF'er before he can kill you and yours.
Odds are, he'll be as surprised as you were that he's getting shot at, and you may regain the initiative.
JAYNE COBB wrote: Well, what you plan and what takes place ain't ever exactly been similar.
TravisM.1 wrote:If a rifle is an option, a rifle is usually the answer.
minengr wrote:I've said it numerous times, a quality rig is only as good as it's weakest link. Which usually is the nut behind the butt.
So, the full armor report I heard from the LEO on the teevee was that the guy had
Ballistic helmet Throat protector vest groin protector/dickpad ballistic leg guards.
So, basically, you're looking for a face shot, from extended range, with a pistol, while hes got a rifle and the initiative.
Thats a shit sandwich.
And dont forget, while you're laying down your return fire, you are dealing with 300 crazed people running in all directions, running into you, knocking you over, and spoiling your aim.
MF'N TEAM LEADER
"Some people think that the best way to stop the leopard is to cut the horns off the gazelle. This, my friends, is insane."
I would really like to help those affected by this. Is there something we can do as ZS or is something like this a better option:
"HUFFINGTON POST IMPACT/CROWDRISE FUNDRAISER: As locals begin piecing together the details of this unspeakable tragedy, aid organizations are stepping in to offer them supplies, blood donations and comfort. Your contribution will go to the New Venture Fund, a 501(c)(3) public charity that funds relief projects. New Venture will distribute donations to organizations such as charities, churches and hospitals supporting the families of victims. In some instances, donations will go directly to families. Donations accepted here http://www.crowdrise.com/helpaurora"
EDIT: "Residents of Aurora, Colo., are mourning the loss of the victims who were tragically shot, wounded and killed Friday at a midnight showing of "The Dark Knight Rises."
As locals begin piecing together the details of this unspeakable tragedy, aid organizations are stepping in to offer them supplies, blood donations and comfort. Your contribution will go to the New Venture Fund, a 501(c)(3) public charity that funds relief projects. New Venture will distribute donations to organizations such as charities, churches and hospitals supporting the families of victims. In some instances, donations will go directly to families." /EDIT
crypto wrote:So, the full armor report I heard from the LEO on the teevee was that the guy had
Ballistic helmet Throat protector vest groin protector/dickpad ballistic leg guards.
So, basically, you're looking for a face shot, from extended range, with a pistol, while hes got a rifle and the initiative.
Thats a shit sandwich.
And dont forget, while you're laying down your return fire, you are dealing with 300 crazed people running in all directions, running into you, knocking you over, and spoiling your aim.
Yep, that's a shit sammich. I hate shit sammiches, but you play the cards you're dealt.
Since this is the first I've heard of anything beyond flack/kevlar, I do not change my proposed response.
Remember, none of that could be seen anyway. He's a black-clad guy in the dark.
If you can identify where you're taking fire from, return fire.
If your fire is not getting results, adjust fire.
The face and arms are all valid shots, and will effect his ability to continue the attack. Also, no armor is perfect.
BTW, I'm up'ing my pistol mag count, and keeping the rifle closer, in response to this. 31rds buys me more chances to win than 16, or at least more chances to get to my rifle.
JAYNE COBB wrote: Well, what you plan and what takes place ain't ever exactly been similar.
TravisM.1 wrote:If a rifle is an option, a rifle is usually the answer.
minengr wrote:I've said it numerous times, a quality rig is only as good as it's weakest link. Which usually is the nut behind the butt.
) when I was on the M8 boats and we were training with the Marines for the big landing on Kuwait, we were taught and trained to do some things while in combat. In a mass conflag aka "everything is fucked up", more than likely my boat got shot and sank on a hot beach, we were taught to stop, reassess, look for our/a commander/PIC (probably the nearest Marine that looked like they knew what they were doing) and come up with a new plan in regards to our situation. You cannot fight your way out of an ambush with just bravery and internet talk. You need to think, you need to act smart, you need to focus what resources you've got and exploit the situation. Getting killed is just not my goal. I do not train to go out in a blaze of glory. I train to win and live and stop the threat. 
