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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:09 pm 
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Humans have an amazing ability to over complicate things. I've been doing a lot of brainstorming and posting lately trying to come up with ideas on what I want to do for my BOB, PAW, etc and was surprised not to find a .45LC/.410 thread. As I sit here and think I have a 12 gauge, a 20 gauge, .410, a 1911 45. ACP, a Kel-Tec .380, a .270, a 30-30, and access to a 9mm, 44 mag, .38, .357, 40, .223, 30-06, 7mm and a bunch of other random stuff. Think post WTSHTF this is great, I find or barter for ammo and I have a weapon for it.

But what if I don't want to stock ammo for all of these things?
What if I'm building a short term cache (regional disaster, bigger than a BOB smaller than PAW) and want more cross over?

I see guys carrying 40 rounds of side arm ammo, 40 rounds of rifle ammo, 40 rounds of something else (shotgun or back up) in thier BOBS or stock piling but that seems wasteful. What are your thoughts on simplifying the entire thing down to interchangable rounds like .45 LC and .410?

Ex. A .45 LC lever action rifle, a .410 shotgun, a Taurus Judge and a .45LC/.410 Derringer?

Brilliant?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:14 pm 
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OR you could use .357 and get ammo that is reasonably priced, and a revolver that isn't a novelty.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:20 pm 
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Same question: .357 Lever Action (Marlin?) and .357 Revolver. No .357 shot shells though? Well not practical ones.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:21 pm 
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When you try to make one tool that does everything, you end up with a tool that's shitty at everything. This is more true of firearms than perhaps anything else. In general, the more complex the tool, the less effective it will be to attempt to multi-task with it.

A pistol is a pistol, a rifle is a rifle, a shotgun is a shotgun. Making them all the same caliber (such as .45 LC/.410) generally means you end up with a shitty, heavy recoil, heavy pistol, a shitty, low power rifle, and a shitty, low power shotgun.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:25 pm 
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please dont get a judge as anything other then a toy


that said i dont think stocking multiple calibers is wasteful.

I stock the following in undisclosed amounts

.22 LR
.22 Short
22. Hornet
8 Shot
00 Buck
12 gauge slugs
5.56 (55 grain/62 grain/75 grain)
7.62x54r
7.72x39
9mm
38 spl
30-06
50 beowulf

variety is the spice of life

ETA plus what TDW said

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:32 pm 
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As far as "stocking" goes, the only calibers I need to worry about are

.40 S&W
.22 LR
5.56x45
12 GA
*.38 Spl

The .38 is for my CCW gun, and I see no reason to keep particularily large amounts of ammo on hand for that. 200 rounds of defensive ammo and whatever I need for training is more than enough.

Four calibers isn't bad at all. The 12 gauge isn't particularily important, but birdshot is cheap, so I tend to have a lot of that on hand.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:36 pm 
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I understand your motivation, but perhaps you're going too far.

I have thought about a consolidation myself that looks like this:

Primary sidearm- 9mm
Compact BUG - 9mm
Rifle -.22
Shotgun - 12ga
Rifle -X39
Bolt Gun -.308

This covers 99.99% of anything that will ever come up. I'd say 100%, but no doubt a belt fed FA would come in handy every now and then. :D

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:25 pm 
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I wouldnt get a Judge. However, I wouldnt rule out the .410 if thats what you choose to use. Underpowered? Get shot with one, then tell me its underpowered. :roll:

Pistol: 9mm
Shotgun:12ga
Rifle: 30-06 or 308

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:28 pm 
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TDW586 wrote:
When you try to make one tool that does everything, you end up with a tool that's shitty at everything. This is more true of firearms than perhaps anything else. In general, the more complex the tool, the less effective it will be to attempt to multi-task with it.

A pistol is a pistol, a rifle is a rifle, a shotgun is a shotgun. Making them all the same caliber (such as .45 LC/.410) generally means you end up with a shitty, heavy recoil, heavy pistol, a shitty, low power rifle, and a shitty, low power shotgun.


/end thread

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:51 pm 
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The .45 Colt is very versitile in a revolver/lever rifle combo and so is the .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum. I wouldn't use the Taurus Judge as a pistol though, its just a gimmick and .410 is more or less worthless for anything but small game at close ranges. Just stick with a Ruger or even a Smith and Wesson revolver and you will much happier and have a much more durable weapon. I say the perfect combo in that caliber is the Rossi 16" M92 in stainless with a stainless Ruger Vaquero, that would be a virtually indestructable pair.

My personal preference for a simple scavaging/survival is the .357 Magnum combo, I have the Marlin 1894CSS and Ruger GP100. Its a more common round with more modern weapons available and it can kill anything I need it to in my neck of the woods. Its also easy and cheap to reload for and both guns can handle a wide range of power levels and bullet weights. You could even cast your own bullets from wheel weights and pull powder and primers from other pistol rounds you find around if you had to. You could keep a rifle and handgun like that running for years after most of the ammo was gone and both could still maintain a higher firing rate and range than the single shot shotguns and random weapons you might run into.

But, I would probably never have to do this if the SHTF because I have a shitload of 5.56 and 9mm I would have to go through before I would have to rely on those weapons for everything. For now, they are just fun guns that are cheap to shoot.

TDW586 wrote:
When you try to make one tool that does everything, you end up with a tool that's shitty at everything. This is more true of firearms than perhaps anything else. In general, the more complex the tool, the less effective it will be to attempt to multi-task with it.

A pistol is a pistol, a rifle is a rifle, a shotgun is a shotgun. Making them all the same caliber (such as .45 LC/.410) generally means you end up with a shitty, heavy recoil, heavy pistol, a shitty, low power rifle, and a shitty, low power shotgun.


While I do generally agree with the idea of getting the right tool for the job (I believe in the survival battery) and there is no "perfect do-it-all" rifle, I have to say that the .45 Colt, .44 Magnum, and .357 Magnum cartridges get about as close as it gets to a successful version of this concept. I also disagree with you about the .45 Colt lever action bieng a "shitty, low power rifle." That is just simply not true unless you are using cowboy action loads or something. The modern Rossi/Puma M92 lever action carbine can handle extreme pressures (the handle .454 Casull and .44 Magnum just fine ) and very hot .45 Colt with ease making it quite a powerful and effective rifle. It certainly exceeds the power and destructive power of the 5.56X45 by a long shot, so is that a "shitty, low-power rifle"?

Just spend a minute reading this if you want to see what it can do...
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/ ... vergun.htm
My father has been reloading for his M92's and Ruger Vaquero's in .45 Colt for years and he has found the same to be true, I've seen the power myself.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:58 pm 
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Fair enough, a low capacity, heavy recoil, limited range rifle. I'm not saying such rifles don't have their place, but again, using the right tool for the job. If I am going after large game in heavy brush country (meaning, limited range) then that .454 Casull levergun might be my choice. But if I am facing an armed opponent (or opponents) in a lethal force confrontation, I want a weapon designed and refined for exactly that; which the AK, AR and other modern battle rifles in appropriate calibers such as 5.56x45mm, 5.45x39mm, and 7.62x39mm are.

My combat rifle is a combat rifle, my hunting rifle is a hunting rifle, so on and so forth. Limiting yourself to one caliber (or two, in this case) is exactly that; limiting yourself.

EDIT: Also, I'm assuming you (that's a general "you", not you specifically) would want to stock various types of ammo to get the most out of your chosen caliber. For example, to cover all bases with .45 LC/.410, you might stock:

.410
buckshot
light birdshot
heavy birdshot
slugs
.45 LC
HP self defense loads
Hard-cast big game loads


All in all, you're still looking at 5-6 types of ammo, albeit all in the same caliber. On the other hand, you could stock, for example:

9mm self-defense loads
5.56 self-defense loads (M193)
.308 hunting loads
.22 LR

And essentially cover the same bases. Four calibers, four ammo types, isn't really any more complicated to stock than two calibers, six ammo types.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:05 pm 
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Will a Winchester 9410 cycle, chamber, and fire .45lc ?

I know it would basically be a smoothbore musket, but something I've been wondering to myself for a long time, since they were out a few years ago.


(Edited for nomenclature)

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Last edited by hotlead on Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:18 pm 
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TDW586 wrote:
Fair enough, a low capacity, heavy recoil, limited range rifle. I'm not saying such rifles don't have their place, but again, using the right tool for the job. If I am going after large game in heavy brush country (meaning, limited range) then that .454 Casull levergun might be my choice. But if I am facing an armed opponent (or opponents) in a lethal force confrontation, I want a weapon designed and refined for exactly that; which the AK, AR and other modern battle rifles in appropriate calibers such as 5.56x45mm, 5.45x39mm, and 7.62x39mm are.

My combat rifle is a combat rifle, my hunting rifle is a hunting rifle, so on and so forth. Limiting yourself to one caliber (or two, in this case) is exactly that; limiting yourself.

EDIT: Also, I'm assuming you (that's a general "you", not you specifically) would want to stock various types of ammo to get the most out of your chosen caliber. For example, to cover all bases with .45 LC/.410, you might stock:

.410
buckshot
light birdshot
heavy birdshot
slugs
.45 LC
HP self defense loads
Hard-cast big game loads


All in all, you're still looking at 5-6 types of ammo, albeit all in the same caliber. On the other hand, you could stock, for example:

9mm self-defense loads
5.56 self-defense loads (M193)
.308 hunting loads
.22 LR

And essentially cover the same bases. Four calibers, four ammo types, isn't really any more complicated to stock than two calibers, six ammo types.


Well said, and I would agree 100%. But even as much as a gun nut activist as I am I recognize that the chances of me ever having to use my firearms in a life or death situation is slim and even if I did it probably wouldn't matter too much what I used. If the OP feels comfortable with a lever action and a revolver then I say go for it. Just practice hard with whatever weapon you use and know its true limitations. Everyone does not need an AR or AK to defend themselves but, they are damn good to have when you do need 'em.

hotlead wrote:
Will a Winchester 94-410 cycle, chamber, and fire .45lc ?

I know it would basically be a smoothbore musket, but something I've been wondering to myself for a long time, since they were out a few years ago.


If there ever was such a beast (I don't think anything like that has ever existed) than I would have to say no as the .410 chamber is a good bit bigger than the .45 Colt.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:40 pm 
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Given that I live in an urban area I should keep my AK and I'm not proposing giving up everything in favor of one gun or cartridge. I was only brainstorming in order to simplify a BOB/Cache/etc.

Also this is excellent information so thank you.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:12 pm 
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Domino wrote:
hotlead wrote:
Will a Winchester 9410 cycle, chamber, and fire .45lc ?

I know it would basically be a smoothbore musket, but something I've been wondering to myself for a long time, since they were out a few years ago.


If there ever was such a beast (I don't think anything like that has ever existed) than I would have to say no as the .410 chamber is a good bit bigger than the .45 Colt.


There was, it's the Winchester 9410. I was wondering because if the Judge will fire both, then the 9410 might.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:24 pm 
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TDW586 wrote:
When you try to make one tool that does everything, you end up with a tool that's shitty at everything.


Also 2 is 1 and 1 is... I have both an AR and G27 in my BOG. The AR could be reworked to run on .40 S&W if you really wanted to standardize on one round. But then when you run it dry... At least I should have some rounds for the pistol still.

I do find stocking ammo much easier with oinley a few cabers to work from. I keep 308 (match hand loads), 223 .40 S&W (because its used by just about every LEO anywhere and easy to find) 22lr, 12ga.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:23 pm 
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RANT/

Domino wrote:
Its also easy and cheap to reload for and both guns can handle a wide range of power levels and bullet weights. You could even cast your own bullets from wheel weights and pull powder and primers from other pistol rounds you find around if you had to.


This is a very stupid idea. Trying to use powder from some "rounds on find around" is just asking for trouble if you don't already know exactly what type of powder it is do not do this.

/RANT

The idea of a pistol/carbine combo works for me, I've got a Marlin 1894C and a 6" Colt Trooper MkIII in 357 magnum for bugging out

Musubi

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:15 pm 
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Musubi wrote:
This is a very stupid idea. Trying to use powder from some "rounds on find around" is just asking for trouble if you don't already know exactly what type of powder it is do not do this.
/RANT
Musubi


:roll:

First off, this is more of an act of desperation and necessity in a real SHTF situation than a sound reloading technique that I am advocating. I was simply pointing out that this can be done (and likely done very safely if you know what you are doing) and still have ammunition that the weapon can actually fire, which is unlikely in the case of autoloaders. Secondly, many of the other pistol calibers that would be commonly found (9mm, .380, .40 S&W, .45 ACP) all can and do use the same powders and none of the others have more powder capacity than the the .357 Magnum; and all have operate at the same or less pressure (35,000 PSI). This basically means that in pretty much every case (when the same powder is used) the .357 holds more than the others safely. You could pretty much dump in all of the powder from any of these rounds and it would be just fine, as long as it is in a strong modern .357 Magnum (espeacially considering that the original max pressure for the .357 was 45,000 and it was later changed to 35,000 because of the old guns). The ones I would be careful about would be cartridges that operate at much higher pressures or cartridges that use a lot more powder. If you want you can take a look at these charts and you would see that between those rounds, you could load 9mm, .45 ACP, and .380 powder into a .357 case with pretty much impunity; and a little more caution with .40 S&W.

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... er&Source=

http://www.best9mm.com/reloading9mm.html

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... er&Source=

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... der&Source

compared to .357 magnum...

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... er&Source=

max pressures....

http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm

I am actually going to give this a try with various commerical ammunition in the near future to test it out...


Last edited by Domino on Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:29 pm 
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Related Question:
Is there a rifle, preferrablly repeating but not necessary, that chambers both 45LC and 410?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:31 pm 
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Lord Bane wrote:
Related Question:
Is there a rifle, preferrablly repeating but not necessary, that chambers both 45LC and 410?


A revolving carbine would be the closest you're likely to get.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:37 pm 
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If you are going to reload why not reload black powder cartridge calibers instead of mixing different modern powders and primers in a drawn out SHTF? It is too easy to go way over SAMMI pressures. I know .45 colt and 12g are easy to reload with black powder and other volume powders.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:39 pm 
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hotlead wrote:
Domino wrote:
hotlead wrote:
Will a Winchester 9410 cycle, chamber, and fire .45lc ?

I know it would basically be a smoothbore musket, but something I've been wondering to myself for a long time, since they were out a few years ago.


If there ever was such a beast (I don't think anything like that has ever existed) than I would have to say no as the .410 chamber is a good bit bigger than the .45 Colt.


There was, it's the Winchester 9410. I was wondering because if the Judge will fire both, then the 9410 might.


The 9410 won't chamber the 45 Colt.
You'll end up with a round stuck and have a long, boring tear down process.
Ask me how I know.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:52 pm 
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for some further thought, I plan to add a .45 lc revolver sooner or later, partly cause .45 colt will generally stop anything on 2 legs, and secondarily, I have some .45 cal to .22 lr chamber inserts, that I got to try out in my .410 derringer, and found them to be suitable accuracy wise for bunny rabbit sized game at close ranges- plus it makes for cheap plinking with a weapon that fires a very credible round - in addition, I have a small kit in my GHB that holds said derringer, and some chamber inserts- so I have the option of .410, .45 lc, and .22 lr- mind you, this is not an ideal setup, but weapon, inserts, and all three types of ammo fit in a small camera case, and at close range or as a forage gun I would not feel under-gunned .... with a good .45 lc pump or lever gun, and a blackhawk or vaquero, you have a very durable and effective suite- if that is changed to a judge and one of the new judge revolving carbines, both can fire all three- mind you, with the option of the .22, the shotgun shell is likely a lot less relevant, as the .45 can handle the big stuff likely better, and the.22 does birds and bunnies.....

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:56 pm 
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Lord Bane wrote:
Related Question:
Is there a rifle, preferrablly repeating but not necessary, that chambers both 45LC and 410?


H&R Snake Charmer or the Taurus/Rossi "circuit" Judge carbine...

http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Shotguns ... rvivor.asp

http://www.rossiusa.com/2010newcatalog/?catalog_page=5


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