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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:40 pm 
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Power Fail wrote:
Jester79 wrote:
Power Fail wrote:
Jester79 wrote:
In my HD scattergun I load maintain an empty chamber, first 2 are #7 bird, then 2 #4 Buck, then 2 00 Buck, then 2 slugs. In the sidesaddle are 3 more 00 Buck, and 3 slugs. YMMV


Any particular reason for A - having bird shot in a home defense shotgun, and B - all the load variation, especially within the mag tube? Having alternate loads in side saddles and butt cuffs is one thing, but within the mag tube?


I was raised with the concept of using the best tool for the job. I have seen first hand how at point blank range, #7 Bird will jack a person up. If the person is too far away for the birdshot to be effective, I can shoot the first round, dump the second, and then move on to the heavier loads. I don't care what anyone may say, if someone is peppered with birdshot in the face, they are going to be stunned if not blinded. This will give me the second that I need to more forward to a heavier load. The heavier loads are the ones in the sidesaddle because if I need to reload the gun after firing that much lead already, it is a bad day. Over penetration through the house is a factor for me since I have kids in the house. I like the idea of using what is needed instead of going with the biggest first. It has been proven that when it comes to a shotgun, you will fight with what you have on the gun at the time. This is my personal technique that I have trained with and it works for me. Sometimes less is more.


If it sounds like I'm being a jackass with this, I promise that I'm not, but I am legitimately curious as to your personal experience with seeing bird shot mess a person up. Were they killed? Did you see the body? What kind of distance are we talking about? Fat guy or skinny guy?

The answers to those questions aside, I still don't see, for me personally, using bird shot in a home defense shotgun. Granted, my situation is different, to where I don't have to worry about over penetration. From everything that I've seen and read, bird shot makes really nasty, but really shallow wounds, and if someone dies from it, it's generally much later at the hospital when all those little pellet wounds are too small to stitch up. I guess maybe if he was right at the end of your barrel that could work, but when it comes to me needing a firearm at "across the living room" distances, I need that mother fucker to drop, NOW.

All that said, it's only your first two rounds (not the entire tube, like I've seen), you have other options, you train with the weapon in its current setup, and you've thought it through for your own personal situation. Go with what works for you.


The situation that I witnessed was at a distance of approx 6 meters. The guy with the hydraulic leak was of average build, I'd say about 5'10 180.

I have put a lot of time, research, and practice to almost over think this loadout. I have measured the max distances INSIDE my house and know the type of spread that I will encounter. This is just what I do and YMMV. For those who think I am off my rocker for starting off with bird A) Piss off B) Any volunteers want to stand in front of the muzzle and we can test how effective it is? I only have 2 rounds of bird on/in the gun. Again for those forgetting my earlier post, I think it is fairly easy to dump those bird rounds and progress towards heavier rounds. Remember rule #2 of Zombieland - Doubletap

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:54 pm 
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Jester79 wrote:
The situation that I witnessed was at a distance of approx 6 meters. The guy with the hydraulic leak was of average build, I'd say about 5'10 180.

I have put a lot of time, research, and practice to almost over think this loadout. I have measured the max distances INSIDE my house and know the type of spread that I will encounter. This is just what I do and YMMV. For those who think I am off my rocker for starting off with bird A) Piss off B) Any volunteers want to stand in front of the muzzle and we can test how effective it is? I only have 2 rounds of bird on/in the gun. Again for those forgetting my earlier post, I think it is fairly easy to dump those bird rounds and progress towards heavier rounds. Remember rule #2 of Zombieland - Doubletap


If the person you are shooting presents a lethal threat (which we must assume they do, otherwise you should not be shooting them), are you sure you are confident with your first two rounds being birdshot, with almost no real possibility of causing a decisive stop? How many rounds do you think a shooter armed with a revolver, semi-automatic pistol, or other modern weapon get off in your direction as you fire one and then two rounds, with only your third being reasonably effective?

As for the old "stand in front of the muzzle and we'll see", that's a ridiculous argument. I wouldn't stand in front of a .177 cal pellet gun either, nor would I allow you to whale on my head with a wiffle bat, but that doesn't make either of those an effective choice for self-defense.

In any case, I doubt I'll convince you otherwise if the word of every major firearms instructor, trauma surgeons, wound ballistics researchers, and others hasn't. Good luck.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:22 am 
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TDW586 wrote:
Jester79 wrote:
The situation that I witnessed was at a distance of approx 6 meters. The guy with the hydraulic leak was of average build, I'd say about 5'10 180.

I have put a lot of time, research, and practice to almost over think this loadout. I have measured the max distances INSIDE my house and know the type of spread that I will encounter. This is just what I do and YMMV. For those who think I am off my rocker for starting off with bird A) Piss off B) Any volunteers want to stand in front of the muzzle and we can test how effective it is? I only have 2 rounds of bird on/in the gun. Again for those forgetting my earlier post, I think it is fairly easy to dump those bird rounds and progress towards heavier rounds. Remember rule #2 of Zombieland - Doubletap


If the person you are shooting presents a lethal threat (which we must assume they do, otherwise you should not be shooting them), are you sure you are confident with your first two rounds being birdshot, with almost no real possibility of causing a decisive stop? How many rounds do you think a shooter armed with a revolver, semi-automatic pistol, or other modern weapon get off in your direction as you fire one and then two rounds, with only your third being reasonably effective?

As for the old "stand in front of the muzzle and we'll see", that's a ridiculous argument. I wouldn't stand in front of a .177 cal pellet gun either, nor would I allow you to whale on my head with a wiffle bat, but that doesn't make either of those an effective choice for self-defense.

In any case, I doubt I'll convince you otherwise if the word of every major firearms instructor, trauma surgeons, wound ballistics researchers, and others hasn't. Good luck.


Damn Jester... you just got freaking owned. Accept it.

I often here the "I don't want to shoot through the wall and hit a loved one or grandma down the street argument." In which case, remember the 4 rules of firearms safety. One of them is know your backstop and what is behind it. Bleh, never mind. I've spent too many hours arguing with those in the wrong. There is a 99.99999% that your house will never be invaded, and you will never shoot a home intruder. When you account in the fact that there is a 99.9999% I won't change your mind with my post, the chances of me making a real life difference are astronomical. Enjoy your bird shot dude.

I have 18 rounds on my Remington 870. 6 in the tube, 6 on the side saddle, 1 in the chamber, and 5 on the nylon shell holder on the butt. They are 3" magnum #4 buckshot rounds, they hold 41 pellets each and get 14-16" of penetration. I went with what would give me the most pellets at beyond 12" penetration (per FBI recommendations) and went with it. I would also sleep well with either #1 or 00 buck. Both will kill a person DRT, unlike bird shot.

YMMV

(edit: corrected for spelling)

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"...And that's how Sig lost his [eyesight/fingers]."


Last edited by Sig_Ocelot on Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:37 am 
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Thank you all for correcting my foolish ways

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:19 am 
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Jester79 wrote:
Thank you all for correcting my foolish ways


Bah, it doesn't matter. Whatever makes you sleep well at night. For all I care you could use a Taurus Judge loaded with #4 bird shot. Carry on. 8)

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Rush2112 wrote:
Somehow I see this phrase ending a lot of sentences in the future:

"...And that's how Sig lost his [eyesight/fingers]."


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:04 am 
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Regardless of what I have, use, train with; it is better than depending on emergency services.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:10 am 
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I think the birdshot is pretty foolish. I think multiple loads in tube is downright stupid. In a situation when you are possible getting shot at and shooting back etc. you want to be counting shells? You want to be thinking "can I take this shot? or is my stupid slug going to fly through the wall and kill someone else." Either use all birdshot or use real loads and make sure you have a clear firing path.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:39 am 
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Birdshot replaced with 00 Buck

Shit can we kill this thread now?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:58 pm 
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Jester79 wrote:
Birdshot replaced with 00 Buck

Shit can we kill this thread now?


THANK YOU!!! We only do it because we care! :D

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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 4:19 am 
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Quote:
Birdshot replaced with 00 Buck

Shit can we kill this thread now?


Now that you replaced Birdshot with buck, yes we can!
Birdshot would´ve only wounded the thread, not kill it! :wink: :lol:

On a more serious note: Load into your shotgun whatever you feel comfortable with. I for one use a SxS, so i need something that will kill instantly since i don´t have the luxury of another 6 in the tube or so...


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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 5:27 am 
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Paladin1 wrote:
Jester79 wrote:
Birdshot replaced with 00 Buck

Shit can we kill this thread now?


THANK YOU!!! We only do it because we care! :D



Today is a good day. I feel like I accomplished something. :D

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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 9:47 am 
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It was only 2 rounds of bird followed by buck and slug. It just seemed a bit zealous for 2 rounds. Thanks for the overwhelming love all. Next time I will try to return the love, maybe with some lube, maybe not.

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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 1:44 pm 
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Jester79 wrote:
It was only 2 rounds of bird followed by buck and slug. It just seemed a bit zealous for 2 rounds. Thanks for the overwhelming love all. Next time I will try to return the love, maybe with some lube, maybe not.


I don't really see the point of the slugs either, honestly. :D

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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 2:50 pm 
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TDW586 wrote:
I don't really see the point of the slugs either, honestly. :D


::Dons flame suit, clenches butthole::

I only have 3, and they're on the side saddle, but I do have them on there.

Reasons:

1 - Covering distance. [Random example] - For whatever reason, my intruder knows I have a weapon, that irks him, so he runs out to his car, grabs a gun, and starts back towards the house. I'd rather not wait until he's in range for buckshot coming out of a smooth bore 18.5 inch barrel. Or let's take a page from the "Defend yourself in a riot like this" thread and say you've got a huge yard, and dudes are lighting Molotov's.

2 - He's behind something. He drops behind a couch, he's around the corner behind drywall, whatever. Maybe I could just wait for the cops, but if he's taking errant "reach his hand around the concealment and blindly fire" pot shots at me, I'd like the option to have something that stands a better chance of retaining higher lethality once it goes through a barrier.

3 - Armor. Nothing that comes out of a 12 gauge (at least that I'm aware of) will go through good body armor. However, a slug is going to have a better chance of knocking him down, or at least stunning him, and mashing up his innards, while I take an extra second to properly line up a shot between his eyes. You know, I'm going to leave this up here for learning purposes, but the more I think about this option, the more I realize that if 2 rounds of 00 buck in the chest don't put him down and out, I'll just be going for the grey matter anyway, no matter what's in the chamber. Still, if you're farther away, your particular gun/load combo spreads quicker than others, and you need a solid hunk of lead to go through his brain, a slug is an option.

What's a better setup for these situations? A rifle. Some people don't have rifles, some have rifles, but don't have modern, semi auto, mag fed rifles, some wouldn't choose to use them for HD situations due to their living arrangements, etc. I'm not saying a slug should (or shouldn't) be the round in your chamber, I'm not saying it's good in most situations (I don't think it is, personally), but having a couple on there just in case gives you an extra option.

Edited, used the wrong word

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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 3:12 pm 
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I agree, there are potential uses for the slug, but here's my point. If you're using a shotgun for home defense, one of your major concerns is most likely overpenetration. Now, the idea that buckshot will not punch through walls and rifles will is largely unfounded and as Dave is fond of pointing out, wound profiles after penetrating barriers such as drywall may often be worse with a shotgun.

However, it is true that buckshot will be stopped slightly sooner (that is to say, will be stopped by less material) than most rifle rounds. That being said, your reason to use the shotgun, is that it offers a reduced chance of over-penetration in intermediate barriers....and you load it with a slug. A slug, which will punch through as many household walls and even cinderblock and retain energy to wound far worse than any common SD rifle.

In a phrase, counter productive.

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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 3:30 pm 
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TDW586 wrote:
I agree, there are potential uses for the slug, but here's my point. If you're using a shotgun for home defense, one of your major concerns is most likely overpenetration. Now, the idea that buckshot will not punch through walls and rifles will is largely unfounded and as Dave is fond of pointing out, wound profiles after penetrating barriers such as drywall may often be worse with a shotgun.

However, it is true that buckshot will be stopped slightly sooner (that is to say, will be stopped by less material) than most rifle rounds. That being said, your reason to use the shotgun, is that it offers a reduced chance of over-penetration in intermediate barriers....and you load it with a slug. A slug, which will punch through as many household walls and even cinderblock and retain energy to wound far worse than any common SD rifle.

In a phrase, counter productive.



Quite frankly, with how things are laid out around here, the only people that will be on the floor where I am (in an HD situation) are me, and people that shouldn't be there. If I blast through every bit of drywall on this floor, I couldn't care less. And I've seen the charts that Dave's put up, and, though I was quite surprised, I accept that that's the case. Though I agree, over penetration absolutely is a primary consideration for most people, especially those that use a shotgun for HD.

As for your last paragraph, I absolutely agree that, if the guy is standing, unarmored, not behind any concealment, slugs can be quite irresponsible (unless maybe you're out in the middle of nowhere). My scenario, though, was more if he's kneeling down behind a couch. Being that I'd be shooting from high to low, I'm not worried about over penetration. And your point about a slug retaining more wounding ability through barriers than most rifles is exactly why I would want it in that situation.

I absolutely get what you're saying about using a slug, in a weapon you're using to diminish over penetration, being counter productive. In situations where buckshot may not cut the mustard, though, you likely won't have the option to switch out your shotgun for a rifle (if you even have one loaded and available), and that's when I'd consider using a slug. The 6 rounds of 00 buck in the gun, plus 2 more on the butt cuff (yes, I'll eventually get a side saddle too) should be plenty to deal with any realistic HD situation in this area. If not, I have 3 slugs as an extra option. If the situation isn't dealt with after 8 rounds of 00 buckshot, I doubt 3 more rounds of that would take care of things, but 3 slugs wouldn't.

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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 3:49 pm 
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Where I take issue with that is the idea that one will have time to select a slug as the proper load in the middle of a gunfight. "He's shooting at me, he's shooting, he ran behind that couch and is shooting at me...better load up a slug...okay, still shooting..." isn't very realistic.

It's not a matter of "switching out a shotgun for a rifle" during a fight, if overpenetration isn't a concern for you, why would you grab the shotgun in the first place?

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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 4:08 pm 
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I see where you're coming from with the "select a load" issue. I think it can be done, with proper training. It may not be realistic, but I've seen people top off a shotgun pretty damn quickly. I'm not saying that I'm that good yet, but I'm working on it.

That said, your point is well taken. I've honestly been thinking of switching out the shotgun for a rifle. Quite frankly, I'm more familiar with the shotgun, I've had it longer, used it more, and trained with it in a self defense role long before a rifle. I guess it's just what I've had in my head as my HD weapon. Also, I fell prey to the myth of buckshot disintegrating in walls and rifle rounds blowing straight through 15 houses (hyperbole, but you know what I mean). While comfort and familiarity are key, that doesn't mean I shouldn't work to gain higher levels of those with rifles.

That said, maybe not everyone has a rifle, or one that should be used for home defense. Both of us focused on my personal situation, but that doesn't validate or invalidate the use of slugs in an HD shotgun, especially for those who don't have access to, or choose not to use, rifles.

You mentioned that you do see situations where slugs would be useful. What would those be?

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JamesCannon wrote:
I think he's also forgotten more about spelling and grammar than ... well it just seems he's forgotten a lot about it.

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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 4:18 pm 
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Power Fail wrote:

You mentioned that you do see situations where slugs would be useful. What would those be?



Mostly police and military applications, situations where I am choosing the time and place of the encounter, if for some reason (such as unit policy) I must be armed with a shotgun. That is the only situation I can picture having time to choose what load to use, because I don't believe it will happen once the shooting starts.

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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 5:42 pm 
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Personally, I use a handgun if it's a house clearing, bump in the night situation.

I would use the S12 if it's a Katrina like, looters running around in the street situation.

I would use it for the following reasons:

1.) Higher hit probability than a rifle, a lot higher.
2.) Increased chance of a one shot stop.

Of course, it's area dependent. I live on a 1/2 acre in the burbs, inherently I'm dealing with limited ranges.

Since it's mag fed, on my grab and go shotgun rig I do have one mag filled with 3" Buckhammers, They can go completely through cars. :twisted:

On a side note, but related. I always bust Dave's chops when he cracks on my selection of shotgun over rifle in this scenario, but then turns around and says my selection of X39 as my main defensive caliber because of it's superior penetration vs. .223 is dangerous to bystanders.

It's like, wait a second, the better penetration is not a good reason for selecting X39 over .223 because it represents an increased risk to bystanders, yet you choose a rifle over a shotgun when a shotgun has inherently short range and has almost zero chance of traveling 75yds and penetrating my neighbors walls and having anything left over to hurt anybody?

After really looking at it, I have come to the conclusion that over penetration is a very over-hyped concern. Anything can be taken to extreme, I, of course, am not going to cut loose with a 50cal. on the looter coming across my yard. :lol:

YMMV

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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 7:53 pm 
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Paladin1 wrote:
Ballisticaly speaking #00 and #1 are very close in effectiveness, which is to say very effective. No #1 has the edge because of the number pellets give more wound channels and therefor more potential to strike CNS.

With price being equal I'd go with #1, if it's more expensive I'd go with #00. Either way it's a win.

The birdshot approach is just fucking stupid, with all due respect :D

While a blast to face would most probably be a fight stopper, you are assuming you'll make that shot. The harsh reality is that you don't know who or what your going to come up against and ASSuming that it won't be a large 350lb man, with heavy clothes on (unless you figure there won't be anything bad happen in winter, or it will be only thin people) is foolish at best.

If you are going to shoot someone then your shooting them to stop whatever it is their doing. It's been proven over and over again that birdshot is not an effective penetrator and leaves a very nasty, but shallow wound. If the bad guy is big, high, or armed you are setting yourself, and your loved ones, up to get hurt.

If you use less than effective loads, your not going to get "less sued" if that's what you're worried about. And the "overpenetration" bullshit is just that. Bullshit.

If a round will penetrate enough to stop an attacker it will most definitely go through interior walls. The fact is that soft lead pellets flatten quite a bit and while they will blow through drywall quite well, they are deformed and pose much less of a deadly threat after the initial penetration. Considering the average hit rate of LE is 20% I'd be more concerning about hitting your target than hitting your target and the rounds actually exiting their body or a miss traveling through a wall/doors, etc. and striking an innocent.

While it could, and does, happen, the odds of it are extremely low. I'm not going to risk my life or the lives of my loved ones because of a remote possibility. If you want to be 100% certain that you will never harm an innocent with your shotgun, then never shoot it.


I agree, that's why my first shot out of the ole Mossberg is a 3" rifled hollow-point slug, after that, it's all buckshot baby, two 3" magnum buckshot shells (more pellets), and three regular 00 buck shells. My reasoning for this is that if there are multiple attackers they'll continue to get closer as the one in front goes down.

All this being said, if I have to grab the ole Mossy, it's because the Saiga (loaded with only slugs) is empty, along with the AR. With all of THAT being said, if I'm ever in a situation where I have to empty a 30 round mag of 5.56 I am at fault and should have bugged out a long fucking time ago...


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