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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:59 am 
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crypto wrote:
Okay, there's one big thought-process disconnect I'm seeing in this discussion:

The military definition of 'armor piercing' is something that will defeat X inches of RHA (Rolled steel Homogeneous Armor). This means ammunition with penetrator cores made of steel, bronze, tungsten, uranium, etc.


The media definiion of 'armor piercing' is something that will defeat soft body armor that police wear.
This includes almost every rifle cartridge ever made, and many hot handgun loads.


I haven't seen any tests of Black Talon or Ranger SXT vs ballistically equivalent ammunition into soft armor, but it's possible that the combination of 5% higher velocity and whatever the friction coefficient is with aramid body armor does give it a performance advantage over non-friction-reducing bullet coatings.

That doesn't mean that it's armor-piercing in the military sense though. You can put all the teflon you want on a handgun bullet and it will still splatter harmlessly off of RHA steel.

Fair point. So, then, it is safe to say that in terms of being actually armor piercing, Teflon coating doesn't do shit, but effectiveness against soft body armor, there might be a slight advantage, but really that's sort of pointless because so are a bunch of other rounds?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:14 pm 
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shrapnel wrote:
crypto wrote:
Okay, there's one big thought-process disconnect I'm seeing in this discussion:

The military definition of 'armor piercing' is something that will defeat X inches of RHA (Rolled steel Homogeneous Armor). This means ammunition with penetrator cores made of steel, bronze, tungsten, uranium, etc.


The media definiion of 'armor piercing' is something that will defeat soft body armor that police wear.
This includes almost every rifle cartridge ever made, and many hot handgun loads.


I haven't seen any tests of Black Talon or Ranger SXT vs ballistically equivalent ammunition into soft armor, but it's possible that the combination of 5% higher velocity and whatever the friction coefficient is with aramid body armor does give it a performance advantage over non-friction-reducing bullet coatings.

That doesn't mean that it's armor-piercing in the military sense though. You can put all the teflon you want on a handgun bullet and it will still splatter harmlessly off of RHA steel.

Fair point. So, then, it is safe to say that in terms of being actually armor piercing, Teflon coating doesn't do shit, but effectiveness against soft body armor, there might be a slight advantage, but really that's sort of pointless because so are a bunch of other rounds?

Keep in mind that the Talon and SXT are JHP; I'd assume that no matter how much Teflon you put on one you'd still get more penetration with a FMJ at similar velocity and sectional density.
I'm thinking the only significant advantage of a coated projectile is reduced fouling. Sure, Teflon reduces friction in the bore, but I'd be surprised if it reduced in more than a couple of percent velocity increase.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:20 pm 
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This reminds me of the idiotic recipies for "armor piercing ammo" in those old anarchist cookbook type books that involves prying the bullet off with pliers, dipping it in teflon and putting it back in the casing.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:15 pm 
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Armor piercing means ultra dense, and super fast like DU. Now finding some DU, there is a challenge.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:08 pm 
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I dunno, hella rappers be repping them teff's so they prolly the beez knees...


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:22 pm 
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The armor piercing quality is in the SHAPE of the bullet, not it's coating.

I'd have to say though, a teflon coated .223 made out of tungsten, diamonds, and uranium would be pretty devastating... :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:20 pm 
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Hi Shrapnel,
You may want to research and site Dr. Martin Fackler. He is a military doctor better known for forensics and gunshot wound research. He states in several articles that KTW "Teflon bullets", penetrate because of a solid tungsten core not because of the teflon coat.
Hope these help
Chris
Wound ballistics, round 3
Annals of Emergency Medicine, Volume 14, Issue 9, Pages 936-938
M. Fackler

Fackler, Martin L., M.D.: "FBI 1993 Wound Ballistics Seminar: Efficacy ... Martin L. Fackler, International Defense Review, 59-64, 1/ 1989. .

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:21 pm 
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DeNiros movie Ronin probaly helped hype up that myth.

"Factual errors: In the story a bullet goes through De Niro's bullet proof vest. He states it is because the bullet was sprayed with Teflon. ... "

On a sidenote: I coat all my bullets with Pam.

As cryto said, teflon is just a coating/lube that will up your velocity by roughly 5%. Same with moly coated bullets. 20 to 40 fps extra isn't going to make it armor peircing.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:32 pm 
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klrvagabond wrote:
Keep in mind that the Talon and SXT are JHP; I'd assume that no matter how much Teflon you put on one you'd still get more penetration with a FMJ at similar velocity and sectional density.


I posted something about those and my experience with them here. You're correct in your assumption about the low penetration of the Black Talons. I retrieved several of them from my target, which acts a sort of poor-mans-ballistic-gelatin, for inspection. The reason they were effective was because they dumped all of their energy into their target vice just perforating it.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:05 pm 
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Black Talons don't pierce armor, they just intimidate it with their black projectiles and nickel cases.
I have to say that they probably were some of the coolest _looking_ ammunition I've seen, which was their downfall- if they weren't so 'evil' looking the media wouldn't have noticed them enough to label them as 'cop killers'.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:54 pm 
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LucaBrasi wrote:
Hi Shrapnel,
You may want to research and site Dr. Martin Fackler. He is a military doctor better known for forensics and gunshot wound research. He states in several articles that KTW "Teflon bullets", penetrate because of a solid tungsten core not because of the teflon coat.
Hope these help
Chris
Wound ballistics, round 3
Annals of Emergency Medicine, Volume 14, Issue 9, Pages 936-938
M. Fackler

Fackler, Martin L., M.D.: "FBI 1993 Wound Ballistics Seminar: Efficacy ... Martin L. Fackler, International Defense Review, 59-64, 1/ 1989. .

Well, I can't access the articles right now, but I shall head down to the library tomorrow and see if someone can work Librarian Magic on my database access. Thank you for the suggestions!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:30 am 
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Nice LucaBrasi, I think that might just be what we're looking for. Thanks!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:52 am 
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You know, you do have a valid point. While I believe those that say teflon coating does not make a bullet armor piercing, there really isn't a lot of information available that would meet the credibility requirements of any academic discussion on the matter.

Just a thought, could you go at it another way and simply try to make the case that it's extremely unlikely that a teflon coating would be capable of improving a bullet's armor penetration given the accepted standards of producing ammuntion capable of piercing armor/barriers & what is known about teflon? Something like 'Armor piercing ammunition must be manufactuered with X, Y, & Z characteristics, but teflon is not know to display the ability to provide or enhance X, Y or Z' ?


Last edited by Zell959 on Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:06 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:00 am 
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spyderco monkey wrote:
I dunno, hella rappers be repping them teff's so they prolly the beez knees...


Did you just use Rapper and Flapper in the same sentence? Very cool. Tonight we gonna party like it's 1929!

:lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:01 am 
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the_caged_bird wrote:
The armor piercing quality is in the SHAPE of the bullet, not it's coating.

I'd have to say though, a teflon coated .223 made out of tungsten, diamonds, and uranium would be pretty devastating... :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:08 am 
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This thread has been interesting and informative. ++

I have nothing constructive to add :P

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:24 am 
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So modern gun (il)logic says that because the teflon coated bullet has a slightly higher velocity, it is AP. My Glock has polygonal rifling which is supposed to slightly increase velocity. That means that any ammo I shoot out of my Glock becomes AP. Pure Awesome!!!

Maybe if I shoot teflon coated bullets out of my Glock, I can shoot through bulldozer frames and reinforced concrete walls!!
Hell, I'm going to go coat my truck in teflon so I can pierce through the wind resistance and get incredible fuel mileage!!

On a serious note, you might be able to contact a bullet manufacturer like Speer or Sierra. They might be able to provide empirical data about the workings of AP versus conventional components.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:27 am 
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shrapnel wrote:
..SNIP.. My concern is that, given a choice between believing some chick in class who seems to know a little bit about guns, and something written by the Department Chair and Professor of Forensic Sciences at The George Washington University... Without any evidence, who would you believe?


What does the chick look like?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:41 am 
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To the OP well you could try the reverse track where you try to prove the assertion where Teflon coated bullets magically become AP.

Gee Mr Professor I tried to verify the assertion of the text but I was unable to find any peer reviewed papers, no FBI or DOJ tests, no manufactures tests, but I did find an Internet site that said they were armor piercing and could travel through time.

Body armor is bullet resistant not bullet proof. An M-1 is bullet resistant not bullet proof

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:58 am 
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shrapnel wrote:
the Department Chair and Professor of Forensic Sciences at The George Washington University... Without any evidence, who would you believe?


Having lived in the DC area, and having been to GWU, I can say without reservation that you are likely far more lacking in bias than the two you mentioned above.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:39 pm 
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Itoz wrote:
shrapnel wrote:
..SNIP.. My concern is that, given a choice between believing some chick in class who seems to know a little bit about guns, and something written by the Department Chair and Professor of Forensic Sciences at The George Washington University... Without any evidence, who would you believe?


What does the chick look like?

The chick is me. So, nothing particularly special.

Erm, I mean, I'm a supermodel. :mrgreen:


I may be more lacking in bias, but I am also more lacking in fancy credentials.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:32 pm 
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You could just use the fact that no producer of armor piercing bullets use telflon coatings. If it did indeed work so well, then it clearly would be in some sort of mass production.

Also. Diamonds burn. So putting them in bullets probably wouldn't work.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:04 pm 
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shrapnel wrote:
I may be more lacking in bias, but I am also more lacking in fancy credentials.

Then you need to develop real world experience by conducting an experiment! Here's my idea:

Since you don't have access to a firearms testing lab and procuring teflon coated armor piercing ammunition may be difficult, you need to simulate using alternate methods at lower power. I suggest a Red Ryder carbine-action, two hundred shot Range Model air rifle, a box of BBs (this also eliminates effects of bullet shape on ballistic coefficient), DuPont Teflon Lubricant, and an Airsoft chest protector. Next you'll need a live target (for realism); AmirMortal should do.

Spray half the BBs with the Teflon spray and leave the other half dry. Shoot the armored AmirMortal with several of each. See if either type of BB penetrates the armor and record the results. Repeat as necessary :D

Blindfold AmirMortal to make this a single blind study. Throw things at him to simulate the stress a vest wearer might have when getting shot; tennis balls, books, the cat. Blindfold the cat to make it a double blind study. Spray the cat with Teflon to determine it's armor piercing abilities.

Compile your results and present to your professors. To expand your audience, post video of this experiment to youtube.

My hypothesis is that the leading edge of a sub-sonic, blindfolded, Teflon coated cat will be armor piercing.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:16 pm 
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tarafore wrote:
spyderco monkey wrote:
I dunno, hella rappers be repping them teff's so they prolly the beez knees...


Did you just use Rapper and Flapper in the same sentence? Very cool. Tonight we gonna party like it's 1929!

:lol: :lol:


Thanks! I guess since both style's came out of era's of Prohibition it seemed appropriate, especially since were talking about prohibited ammo :mrgreen:

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