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 Post subject: VZ-58 as a SHTF rifle?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:27 pm 
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Anybody else have/or consider using one for their "go-to" rifle for self-defense?

Here is mine, although it is slightly different than this older picture. I have ditched the original sling in favor of a single point. Also I have a SureFire X300 on the left rail. I am saving pennies and researching quality red-dots. For now I have a cheapo Center Point red-dot on the top rail.

I don't like a VFG on this rifle, since it interferes with my mag changes and I like to grasp the magazine as a VFG anyway.

I know there are pro's and con's to this particular rifle, but such is the case with most any lead-delivery system.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:32 pm 
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For self defense sure but not for extended SHTF, simply because the lack of spare parts and mags. Plis IMHO its not a real big improvement on the AK design. YMMV


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:42 pm 
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JOSH-T wrote:
For self defense sure but not for extended SHTF, simply because the lack of spare parts and mags. Plis IMHO its not a real big improvement on the AK design. YMMV


I agree 100%. And even though an AK is a reliable piston driven rifle, it's still not USA PC. You MAY be misconstrued as an LEO with an AR15, but with an AK, you appear to be "something else." I'll go with my AR15 with Adams Arms piston conversion. Best of both worlds PLUS accuracy.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:43 pm 
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JOSH-T wrote:
For self defense sure but not for extended SHTF, simply because the lack of spare parts and mags. Plis IMHO its not a real big improvement on the AK design. YMMV


There is no such thing as an improvement on the AK design <--Untrue. (there probably is but i have yet to hear of it.) The VZ is a good rifle though, I'd use it for shtf but like Josh said, lack of spare parts.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:53 pm 
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I don't have one as a primary SHTF gun but I do have one and I think it's a pretty capable rifle.

It is definitely better built than any of the AKs I have personally used - milled receiver, MUCH lighter, better ergos IMO.

I am not super worried about spares for two reasons...

1) I'm in Canada and these are super common and popular here.

2) If you don't have it now, you should not expect to have it if things get worse. Therefore, stockpile mags and spares and you will be as fine as anyone else is likely to be.

I think it is a more accurate gun than most AKs. The downsides are shared by the AK - sight radius of a pistol, stupid mag shape. Pistol grip sized for a six year old girl. Hard to mount optics well.

The mags are maybe a little flimsy, but not as bad as lots of older AR mags I've seen.

So far my only complaint is that I am having to fab up my own mag pouches. But other than that I have to admit this rifle has really grown on me. I bought it as a toy to run the uber-cheap X39 (it's still cheap in Canada) but it's turning into a more and more serious tool for me. I am starting to think the only real downside to this gun is that I don't really like X39 ballistics.

I would rather have an upper-tier AR but gun is 3X the price and ammo is 4X the price and that's not worth it to me.

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DocGKR wrote:
.45 ACP is much easier to stop with armor than the smaller, faster 9 mm. On the other hand, the larger mass of .45 ACP allows it to do much better against windshields than 9 mm. What is optimal all depends on your likely engagement scenarios.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:37 pm 
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Quote:
There is no such thing as an improvement on the AK design <--Untrue. (there probably is but i have yet to hear of it.)

Galils


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:54 pm 
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If I bought one (for SHTF or no) I'd buy a parts kit right off the bat.

Actually parts kits for them are still WAY less than AK parts kits at certain places.

Case in point.

VZ-58 parts kit Clearview Investments - $54

But they're starting to climb in price to just a little less than what AK parts kits are going for ($180 to $300).

Apex Gun Parts VZ-58 $180

One Source Tactical VZ-58 parts kit $200

I've always wanted one, but I seem to have a special weakness for former Com-Bloc weapons.

So I'd buy one NOW if I was gonna get one.

(you're gonna need the parts at some point and since it's a slightly oddball long gun you might as well).

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:55 pm 
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JOSH-T wrote:
For self defense sure but not for extended SHTF, simply because the lack of spare parts and mags. Plis IMHO its not a real big improvement on the AK design. YMMV


I bought 2 armorer's kit which has enough spare parts for 24 rifles.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:34 am 
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I always considered the Vz-58 as an interesting rifle but never as a tacticool SHTF choice. Mostly due to lack of tactical accessories such as proper scope mounts. I suppose you could mount an AK side rail on it but I'm not sure. Our Canadian members can talk about that more.

Here's a site where they have oodles of spares and mags. http://www.czechpoint-usa.com/products/spare-parts-and-accessories/vz-58-parts-and-accessories/?list=1


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:20 am 
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I don't think any rails for the AK fit the VZ...I am not certain but there is a bit of a cottage industry in Canada creating rails etc for the VZ, and if it was just a matter of screwing AK stuff on that probably would not have happened.

Well, maybe I spoke to soon...I guess some of what's being made are adapter rails to allow stuff like PSOP mounts to bolt up...

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/sho ... p?t=326747

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DocGKR wrote:
.45 ACP is much easier to stop with armor than the smaller, faster 9 mm. On the other hand, the larger mass of .45 ACP allows it to do much better against windshields than 9 mm. What is optimal all depends on your likely engagement scenarios.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:37 pm 
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Fred Burke wrote:
Quote:
There is no such thing as an improvement on the AK design <--Untrue. (there probably is but i have yet to hear of it.)

Galils


Sig 552, Valmet....

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:40 pm 
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Brianww2e45 wrote:
JOSH-T wrote:
For self defense sure but not for extended SHTF, simply because the lack of spare parts and mags. Plis IMHO its not a real big improvement on the AK design. YMMV


I bought 2 armorer's kit which has enough spare parts for 24 rifles.


Are you prepared to take the kits to go when SHTF? Because I think when most people talk about "replacement parts" they mean "pick ups." If you're not carrying those parts, they're worthless.

Now an AR15 - those parts you'll find anywhere.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:13 pm 
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Who the hell is going to count on luckily finding spare guns or gun parts they need lying around?

That is EXTREME logistics fail IMO.

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DocGKR wrote:
.45 ACP is much easier to stop with armor than the smaller, faster 9 mm. On the other hand, the larger mass of .45 ACP allows it to do much better against windshields than 9 mm. What is optimal all depends on your likely engagement scenarios.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:04 pm 
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JOSH-T wrote:
For self defense sure but not for extended SHTF, simply because the lack of spare parts and mags. Plis IMHO its not a real big improvement on the AK design. YMMV


of course it's not an improvement on the AK design, it's a completely different design.http://50ae.net/VZ-vs-AK/


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:35 pm 
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Well yeah its not made as an improvement but that is what it will always be compared to. (Fair or not)



@ Misanthropist

Untrue I think it is wise to make a decision on parts commonality, for example what if you have to bug out and only have time to grab rifle and that's it?

Good luck finding parts as easily as you would for an AK or AR. Sure it might sound unlikely until it happens then you would be pretty much fucked. IMHO


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:48 pm 
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Well, naturally my situation is different as where I live the VZ58 is one of the most common centerfire semi-autos and finding parts for it would be very easy - as long as society is up and running and gun stores still exist.

If they aren't then IMO things are so fucked that finding ANY spares for ANY gun is about as likely as stumbling across a pile of unused gold coins.

In that case I am not going to be hunting through houses looking for spare parts in the hopes somebody left theirs behind. And if things are so royally screwed that all I have time to do is grab one gun and run, then I will be running to a well-stocked place so again parts situation is covered. The gun just has to get me there. If the gun can't stay running that long, then you are screwed anyway because the gun is junk or you can't get to your BOL without massive running gun battles.

Ergo, if you do not have the spares, planning on finding some is pointless. Either you have them already, or you can buy them because society hasn't fallen apart. Or you couldn't bring them or buy them, so things are so bad that you are just hoping to pick up stuff of a pile of corpses, in which case things are too fucked to worry about.

Buy spares, keep some at home, keep some at BOL. Problem solved.

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DocGKR wrote:
.45 ACP is much easier to stop with armor than the smaller, faster 9 mm. On the other hand, the larger mass of .45 ACP allows it to do much better against windshields than 9 mm. What is optimal all depends on your likely engagement scenarios.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:52 pm 
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misanthropist wrote:
Well, naturally my situation is different as where I live the VZ58 is one of the most common centerfire semi-autos and finding parts for it would be very easy - as long as society is up and running and gun stores still exist.

If they aren't then IMO things are so fucked that finding ANY spares for ANY gun is about as likely as stumbling across a pile of unused gold coins.

In that case I am not going to be hunting through houses looking for spare parts in the hopes somebody left theirs behind. And if things are so royally screwed that all I have time to do is grab one gun and run, then I will be running to a well-stocked place so again parts situation is covered. The gun just has to get me there. If the gun can't stay running that long, then you are screwed anyway because the gun is junk or you can't get to your BOL without massive running gun battles.

Ergo, if you do not have the spares, planning on finding some is pointless. Either you have them already, or you can buy them because society hasn't fallen apart. Or you couldn't bring them or buy them, so things are so bad that you are just hoping to pick up stuff of a pile of corpses, in which case things are too fucked to worry about.

Buy spares, keep some at home, keep some at BOL. Problem solved.




I'm not disputing that you shouldn't stock parts I was simply saying that "if" you "HAVE" to search for spare parts they would be harder to find than an ak or ar. (In my area atleast)


Sorry if I wasn't quite clear, its hard to type very cleary on my blackberry. LOL


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:47 pm 
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BunkerBuster wrote:
Brianww2e45 wrote:
JOSH-T wrote:
For self defense sure but not for extended SHTF, simply because the lack of spare parts and mags. Plis IMHO its not a real big improvement on the AK design. YMMV


I bought 2 armorer's kit which has enough spare parts for 24 rifles.


Are you prepared to take the kits to go when SHTF? Because I think when most people talk about "replacement parts" they mean "pick ups." If you're not carrying those parts, they're worthless.

Now an AR15 - those parts you'll find anywhere.


I can easily carry two spare bolts/pistons.

As far as "finding those parts everywhere?" No. You will not find guns laying around everywhere. That's ridiculous.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:48 pm 
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JOSH-T wrote:
Well yeah its not made as an improvement but that is what it will always be compared to. (Fair or not)



@ Misanthropist

Untrue I think it is wise to make a decision on parts commonality, for example what if you have to bug out and only have time to grab rifle and that's it?

Good luck finding parts as easily as you would for an AK or AR. Sure it might sound unlikely until it happens then you would be pretty much fucked. IMHO


Where the hell do you intend to find AK's and AR's lying around?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:05 pm 
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Brianww2e45 wrote:
JOSH-T wrote:
Well yeah its not made as an improvement but that is what it will always be compared to. (Fair or not)



@ Misanthropist

Untrue I think it is wise to make a decision on parts commonality, for example what if you have to bug out and only have time to grab rifle and that's it?

Good luck finding parts as easily as you would for an AK or AR. Sure it might sound unlikely until it happens then you would be pretty much fucked. IMHO


Where the hell do you intend to find AK's and AR's lying around?



HMMMM considering they are the two most popular options, maybe off of the possible wrong doers trying to harm you?


Listen you guys are losing the point of my original post, I said that the possibility of finding matching parts with an ak and ar is greater than with an "oddball" like the VZ. (In the US)


If you don't believe that then your head is up your ass, and once again for those with low reading comprehension I said it was something to consider, in the off chance you can't access your parts kits or lose them. I never said ANYTHING about RELYING on that for your spare parts.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:20 pm 
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I think that if anything hit a fan, there would be rifles everywhere. flesh eating virus, foreign invaders, revolution.. there would be dead people that had guns on them or people you're about to make dead with guns on them. parts availability really takes a back seat to reliability and accuracy.

if it were a revolution that went hot, a small caliber concealable pistol would be my go to gun. only the enemy would be wearing a uniform, pop a driver in an M998, throw a frag in the back and you now have intel until they change the CT keys on the sincgars, guns, ammo, and wheels.

anything else I'd want to keep my distance, conserve ammo and make every one count, and I don't think the AK is the man for the job unless you're fighting prone from a swamp or something, the FCG and piston are a bit sensitive to gunk.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:37 pm 
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JOSH-T wrote:
Brianww2e45 wrote:
JOSH-T wrote:
Well yeah its not made as an improvement but that is what it will always be compared to. (Fair or not)



@ Misanthropist

Untrue I think it is wise to make a decision on parts commonality, for example what if you have to bug out and only have time to grab rifle and that's it?

Good luck finding parts as easily as you would for an AK or AR. Sure it might sound unlikely until it happens then you would be pretty much fucked. IMHO


Where the hell do you intend to find AK's and AR's lying around?



HMMMM considering they are the two most popular options, maybe off of the possible wrong doers trying to harm you?


Listen you guys are losing the point of my original post, I said that the possibility of finding matching parts with an ak and ar is greater than with an "oddball" like the VZ. (In the US)


If you don't believe that then your head is up your ass, and once again for those with low reading comprehension I said it was something to consider, in the off chance you can't access your parts kits or lose them. I never said ANYTHING about RELYING on that for your spare parts.



What is the point of making your gun decisions on the basis of whether you think, on the off chance you can't use your own spares, there is an off chance that you might be able to replace them by finding the right stuff?

Since sequential probabilities are multiplied, you are talking about, say, a one in a thousand chance you can't use the stuff you have or bring a spare bolt with you, multiplied by a further one in a thousand chance that you will last long enough in a world where things are so bad there are guns lying around.

Do not make your gun choices on something that has a one in a million chance of happening. Just buy guns that work reliably and keep spare parts handy.

Anything else is either a logistics failure or an intelligence failure and that's all there is to it.

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DocGKR wrote:
.45 ACP is much easier to stop with armor than the smaller, faster 9 mm. On the other hand, the larger mass of .45 ACP allows it to do much better against windshields than 9 mm. What is optimal all depends on your likely engagement scenarios.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:58 pm 
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JOSH-T wrote:
Brianww2e45 wrote:
JOSH-T wrote:
Well yeah its not made as an improvement but that is what it will always be compared to. (Fair or not)



@ Misanthropist

Untrue I think it is wise to make a decision on parts commonality, for example what if you have to bug out and only have time to grab rifle and that's it?

Good luck finding parts as easily as you would for an AK or AR. Sure it might sound unlikely until it happens then you would be pretty much fucked. IMHO


Where the hell do you intend to find AK's and AR's lying around?



HMMMM considering they are the two most popular options, maybe off of the possible wrong doers trying to harm you?


Listen you guys are losing the point of my original post, I said that the possibility of finding matching parts with an ak and ar is greater than with an "oddball" like the VZ. (In the US)


If you don't believe that then your head is up your ass, and once again for those with low reading comprehension I said it was something to consider, in the off chance you can't access your parts kits or lose them. I never said ANYTHING about RELYING on that for your spare parts.


YOU WILL NOT FIND GUNS LAYING AROUND. Also, AK's may be popular, but the fact of the matter is, very few American house-holds have ARs and AKs. You're not going to find them on the ground, this isn't a video game. By your logic, you better go outside with a Mossberg/870 are Marlin 330 (vastly more popular than AR's and AK's.)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:14 pm 
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Ok wasn't trying to turn this into a petty little pissing contest.

So for the last time and I'm done with this thread, I was simply stating you have a greater chance of finding ak parts than VZ. Where the fuck are you getting this idea that I'm saying that guns will be littered on the street?


As the OP asked what everyone thought, I said I wouldn't do it for the mentioned points, that's all.


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