Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

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Re: Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:18 pm

NT2C wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:19 am
RoneKiln wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:25 pm
https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/The ... 5-2362796/?

My buddy sent me this link that appears to me to be a very good analysis of the incident written by someone claiming to be a lawyer. I don't think there's any politics in the analysis, but I'm sure there is in the comments.

It's a long read, but it tries to cover both legality and applicable lessons for CQB.
Excellent read and I can't say that I disagree with any part of that analysis. The only thing I question is if we know for sure that he actually crossed state lines with the AR. Having lived and owned a firearm in Illinois I am very familiar with Illinois FOID requirements and restrictions, even on purchasing ammo. Wisconsin does not have most of those laws and regulations. I believe it is quite possible that the AR was kept at a friend or relative's house in WI because it was easier. This is born out I believe by the photo and report of him earlier cleaning graffiti with no rifle.
I've heard rumors that this kid was helping to guard his grandparents place of business or the place he worked at, which is probably why he had the rifle. My guess is he borrowed the rifle from a friend or relative like you stated.

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Re: Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

Post by RonnyRonin » Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:47 pm

I saw an explicit claim today that the AR belonged to a friend (that was named) and no state line crossing occurred. If I can find an official version of this claim I'll try to post a link.
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Re: Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

Post by boskone » Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:40 pm

RonnyRonin wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:47 pm
I saw an explicit claim today that the AR belonged to a friend (that was named) and no state line crossing occurred. If I can find an official version of this claim I'll try to post a link.
There's some info on the subject in the ARFCOM link RoneKiln posted.

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Re: Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

Post by MPMalloy » Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:30 pm

The vid below is from Colion Noir. Colion is a practicing atty in TX. He gives his take on the Wisconsin shooting:


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Re: Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

Post by NT2C » Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:05 am

RonnyRonin wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:47 pm
I saw an explicit claim today that the AR belonged to a friend (that was named) and no state line crossing occurred. If I can find an official version of this claim I'll try to post a link.
This is what I suspected and posted a few hours previously.
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Re: Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

Post by Zed Hunter » Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:34 am

GAO is taking on his defense.

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Re: Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

Post by NT2C » Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:21 pm

Zed Hunter wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:34 am
GAO is taking on his defense.
Government Accounting Office?
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Re: Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:05 pm

NT2C wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:21 pm
Zed Hunter wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:34 am
GAO is taking on his defense.
Government Accounting Office?
I think he meant GOA, which would be Gun Owners of America.

At least I think so anyway.

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Re: Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

Post by NT2C » Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:10 pm

12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:05 pm
NT2C wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:21 pm
Zed Hunter wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:34 am
GAO is taking on his defense.
Government Accounting Office?
I think he meant GOA, which would be Gun Owners of America.

At least I think so anyway.
That's what I figure too, especially since I know they and 2AF were sending legal teams.
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Re: Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:38 pm

NT2C wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:10 pm
12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:05 pm
NT2C wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:21 pm
Zed Hunter wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:34 am
GAO is taking on his defense.
Government Accounting Office?
I think he meant GOA, which would be Gun Owners of America.

At least I think so anyway.
That's what I figure too, especially since I know they and 2AF were sending legal teams.
I've heard this kid is supposedly getting legal counsel from the guy who represented Nick Sandmann and someone named Lin Wood.

So he's going to be pretty well represented if that's the case.

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Re: Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

Post by absinthe beginner » Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:25 pm

RonnyRonin said: I saw an explicit claim today that the AR belonged to a friend (that was named) and no state line crossing occurred. If I can find an official version of this claim I'll try to post a link.
Kyle Rittenhouse's legal team has released a statement detailing their version of events that night. They explicitly state that the AR-15 involved did not cross state lines.

Kyle and a friend armed themselves with rifles due to the deadly violence gripping Kenosha and many other American cities, and headed to the business premises. The weapons were in Wisconsin and never crossed state lines."

https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=61686

Another witness said Rittenhouse was with his brother that night who "was his guardian at the time which made it legal for him to possess a firearm."

https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=61687


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Re: Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

Post by JF89 » Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:45 pm

-edited- 8-31-20
Last edited by JF89 on Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

Post by woodsghost » Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:44 pm

JF89 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:45 pm
We have been having a similar discussion over on the Full30 forums but it's a less neutral place more geared for conservative types or at least thats how it panned out.
I think most of the gun community trends conservative, though that has changed some in recent years and one of the things I love about ZS is the wider range of experience and opinions. I know we talk about how what we say online ink will never change anyone's mind, but my mind has been changed multiple times because of what people here have said. That is why I try to put real thought into what I say, because I know I've really considered the words of others here and value the relationships with people here.
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Re: Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

Post by RoneKiln » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:40 am

NT2C wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:19 am
RoneKiln wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:25 pm
https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/The ... 5-2362796/?

My buddy sent me this link that appears to me to be a very good analysis of the incident written by someone claiming to be a lawyer. I don't think there's any politics in the analysis, but I'm sure there is in the comments.

It's a long read, but it tries to cover both legality and applicable lessons for CQB.
Excellent read and I can't say that I disagree with any part of that analysis. The only thing I question is if we know for sure that he actually crossed state lines with the AR. Having lived and owned a firearm in Illinois I am very familiar with Illinois FOID requirements and restrictions, even on purchasing ammo. Wisconsin does not have most of those laws and regulations. I believe it is quite possible that the AR was kept at a friend or relative's house in WI because it was easier. This is born out I believe by the photo and report of him earlier cleaning graffiti with no rifle.
Kenosha is right on the state border and the kid lives just over that border. So the commute back and forth is so short that there's not much value in trying to keep a firearm at a friends. Ive seen pictures of him as a young kid holding an AR, so apparently he grew up with them.

I have since heard that a 16 or 17 year old is allowed to carry a rifle in many situations, so he may not have actually been breaking the law when it comes to age restrictions. I've not looked up the law myself. I've been pretty busy the last few days.
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Re: Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

Post by raptor2 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:04 pm

I do not know WI law but in LA and MS assuming the person has not engaged in a crime or cannot be proven to intend to commit a crime (for instance makes threats on social media about the target) and is in lawful possession of a firearm open carry is legal, not smart but legal.

In LA & MS a person who is chased by a crowd of people and has reason to believe that they are threatening his/her life has right to employ lethal force in self defense assuming of course that the person is otherwise engaging in lawful activity and is not the aggressor.

The real legal question in LA & MS (not sure about WI) is did the person act aggressively before the shooting occurred. Did he call them names, (not aggression) taunt them (depending upon what was said that may or may not be aggression) or otherwise induce them to chase him.

The video I saw (which obviously is NOT The whole story) if it is the whole story, a case of self defense would likely prevail in LA & MS...not sure about WI.


Prep take away; in LA, TX & MS the right of self defense against a violent mob is pretty well protected.
That also may be why there are no mobs looting and burning in cities within those states.
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Re: Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

Post by TacAir » Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:09 pm

Lessons from Katrina well leaned and not forgotten?

Just 15 years ago - how time flies....
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Re: Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

Post by raptor2 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:49 pm

TacAir wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:09 pm
Lessons from Katrina well leaned and not forgotten?

Just 15 years ago - how time flies....
The lessons I learned are truly not forgotten by me.
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Re: Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

Post by raptor2 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:07 pm

Interesting arrest statistics here. Draw your own conclusions.

https://www.fox6now.com/news/kenosha-po ... acob-blake

Those arrests include people from 44 different cities, the chief said, noting that 102 of the people "processed during this week" listed addresses from outside Kenosha.

More than 20 firearms were seized, the chief said, "followed up by active investigations."
Some may live within a 20 mile radius of Kenosha and work in Kenosha. Still I doubt there are 44 cities within said radius.
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Re: Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

Post by NT2C » Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:21 pm

raptor2 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:07 pm
Interesting arrest statistics here. Draw your own conclusions.

https://www.fox6now.com/news/kenosha-po ... acob-blake

Those arrests include people from 44 different cities, the chief said, noting that 102 of the people "processed during this week" listed addresses from outside Kenosha.

More than 20 firearms were seized, the chief said, "followed up by active investigations."
Some may live within a 20 mile radius of Kenosha and work in Kenosha. Still I doubt there are 44 cities within said radius.
Having family in the area and having spent a lot of time traveling around it I would not use a distance measurement for this, I'd use time. Using a time measurement puts all of Chicago and its suburbs within range as well as Madison, Milwaukee, Janesville, hell, even Gary, Indiana is close enough to make it.
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Re: Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

Post by RoneKiln » Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:21 am

raptor2 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:04 pm
The real legal question in LA & MS (not sure about WI) is did the person act aggressively before the shooting occurred. Did he call them names, (not aggression) taunt them (depending upon what was said that may or may not be aggression) or otherwise induce them to chase him.
In my state, once he ran away to disengage from the conflict it no longer matters if he started it. If someone starts a fight with me and then runs away, I have no right to pursue unless I have cause to believe that person is still an imminent threat. If they run and I pursue, I am now the aggressor.

That kid acted with more restraint than I think I would.
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Re: Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

Post by raptor2 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:39 pm

The attorneys for the kid in this matter released a video that splices together several videos of the incident.

Based up this video there are shot(s) fired by Alexander Blaine before the kid shot. He was pursued and barricaded by an angry violent mob who tried to take away his rifle.

see 4:06
He showed remarkable self restraint during the violent physical attacks against him. The person shot in the arm clearly drew a firearm and said so in subsequent statements.

Several of the assailants were violent felons.

It also shows the kid trying to surrender to LEO and them ordering him away and to leave the scene.

Note youtube is censoring this video and the link may not work.

NWS/Politics so you have click the link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4dhPM9 ... 3FightBack


Assuming this video shows the full and correct account of the matter; in LA/MS the kid's actions would have been lawful. In fact IMO the self restraint and willingness to cooperate with LEO on site and then being sent away is above and beyond what the laws in LA/MS require.

BTW I do not think you will see this video in much of the MSM much less a truthful accounting of this update.

My $.02 on the matter.
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Re: Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

Post by MPMalloy » Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:59 pm

raptor2 wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:39 pm
The attorneys for the kid in this matter released a video that splices together several videos of the incident.

Based up this video there are shot(s) fired by Alexander Blaine before the kid shot. He was pursued and barricaded by an angry violent mob who tried to take away his rifle.

see 4:06
He showed remarkable self restraint during the violent physical attacks against him. The person shot in the arm clearly drew a firearm and said so in subsequent statements.

Several of the assailants were violent felons.

It also shows the kid trying to surrender to LEO and them ordering him away and to leave the scene.

Note youtube is censoring this video and the link may not work.

NWS/Politics so you have click the link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4dhPM9 ... 3FightBack


Assuming this video shows the full and correct account of the matter; in LA/MS the kid's actions would have been lawful. In fact IMO the self restraint and willingness to cooperate with LEO on site and then being sent away is above and beyond what the laws in LA/MS require.

BTW I do not think you will see this video in much of the MSM much less a truthful accounting of this update.

My $.02 on the matter.
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Re: Wisconsin Police Shooting and Protests

Post by MPMalloy » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:09 pm

Powerful video.

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