The Great ACU Debate. (56K death!)

[Blackdog]

blackdog - I hear you. Bugging out of LA. Shit living in LA. Is an alternate universe. If it was just me I'd get a dirt bike. Take the firebreak across the Santa Monica mountains. And strap an Uzi to my chest. (Kidding sort of. I have a friend who's plan is to ride his dirtbike out of town.) LOL!

Glad to hear someone else had the same "cammie" issues too. That term must sound awful to everyone but Marines. Kind of how "battle buddy" or "woobie" sounds to me. So what was the next generation of BDU's after woodland? Something you called slant pockets? Was it any lighter weight? God woodland BDUs were awful. It was like wearing Carharts. No offense to those that love them. But I run hot personally. I need light weight stuff. And layers I can add to my top if need be. I could wear shorts year around.

But your right. Need to stick to the stuff that really counts. Boot's are a good subject. I'm just starting. Just getting my gear together. Kept looking at boots. Wanted to find a deal. Kept thinking about all the miles I humped in shitty old black combat boots. But the more and more I looked at it. The more I decided this was one of the places I wasn't going to skimp on. Consulted my father. (An old Indian.) He said one word "Danner". I trust him. He's an old Marine. That spent the first three years of my life as a trapper. Been a woodsman in the big mountains of the NW his whole life. Used to build trails up into the high country for the Forest Service with my grandfather. I'll save up a little longer and get the boots I want. Rather than the ones "that will work".

I need to advance my training in first aid too. Good point. It's been to long since I studied or was trained in any of that. Became blatantly apparent when I started putting my FAK together. I need to know how more of this stuff works. Back in the day no one ever even considered giving an IV. A tourniquet was about as far as it went.

This is the only pic I have of the OG-107s (and it ain't great or detailed). What they did was clean out a warehouse someplace and issued the old VN uniforms to some units. In the pic you can see a wide variety of uniforms. The BDU came in heavy and a lighter rip-stop. I doubt if many of the lighter BDUs survive because they got run thru pretty quick just like the OGs.


2-87 by mj1015, on Flickr

[AKFTW]

Just bought an ACU-cut woodland top yesterday!

[Crimson Phoenix]

My brother and I have had full sets of woodland ACU from TRU-SPC Atlanco for five years now and they're great. That being said, I had to go back to BDU trousers. Can't stand the ACU trouser cut for some reason. Don't mind the blouse, but I'd wish the breast pockets had a wider flap and bellows. I understand they're made like that because they're supposed to be worn with armor and chafing and whatnot, but not everyone wears these with armor. You can't fit more than a folded slip of paper in them, really. Pen stalls are a bit of a nuisance too, since I'm a southpaw.

[angelofwar]

Just bought an ACU-cut woodland top yesterday!

I pick up what I can when I can, at the best prices I can. I buy until I get to a comfort level, and then,determine my need for it later...if I don't need it, it get's gifted to brothers/friends. I acquired a ACU set at goodwill for like $5, in awesome shape. I'll keep at least one set...my bug out plan could change on the situation, and I'd hate to have to bug-out to a different locale, and not have decent camo for it. Of course I'm still in and still get issued stuff quite a bit. My camo/USGI "collection" can fill up about 6 foot lockers. LOL! But, I have all my bases covered.

I wonder how good ACU wood work in a lightly snowed-on forest???

Oh, and for those that shun the cammie INCH BO plan/approaches "Don't want to be mistaken for military"...I'd rather have a 95% chance of being concealed and a 5% chance of being mistaken for military, than having a 50% chance of being noticed period. The benefits of camo in a non-urban environment FAR out-weight the risks.

Regular bug-out? Conservatives earht color clothes. SHTF/roving bands of cut-throats? Cammies.

[AKFTW]

My brother and I have had full sets of woodland ACU from TRU-SPC Atlanco for five years now and they're great. That being said, I had to go back to BDU trousers. Can't stand the ACU trouser cut for some reason. Don't mind the blouse, but I'd wish the breast pockets had a wider flap and bellows. I understand they're made like that because they're supposed to be worn with armor and chafing and whatnot, but not everyone wears these with armor. You can't fit more than a folded slip of paper in them, really. Pen stalls are a bit of a nuisance too, since I'm a southpaw.

Yep that's why I got just the top- I love my BDU pants (have like 12 pairs in various colors) but I wanted a woodland top that was a little more "high speed" (i.e. velcro for patches and shit )

[Blackdog]

Just bought an ACU-cut woodland top yesterday!

I pick up what I can when I can, at the best prices I can. I buy until I get to a comfort level, and then,determine my need for it later...if I don't need it, it get's gifted to brothers/friends. I acquired a ACU set at goodwill for like $5, in awesome shape. I'll keep at least one set...my bug out plan could change on the situation, and I'd hate to have to bug-out to a different locale, and not have decent camo for it. Of course I'm still in and still get issued stuff quite a bit. My camo/USGI "collection" can fill up about 6 foot lockers. LOL! But, I have all my bases covered.

I wonder how good ACU wood work in a lightly snowed-on forest???

Oh, and for those that shun the cammie INCH BO plan/approaches "Don't want to be mistaken for military"...I'd rather have a 95% chance of being concealed and a 5% chance of being mistaken for military, than having a 50% chance of being noticed period. The benefits of camo in a non-urban environment FAR out-weight the risks.

Regular bug-out? Conservatives earht color clothes. SHTF/roving bands of cut-throats? Cammies.

All fair enough.

It seems the real question is:

If you were starting from pretty much dead scratch, would your very first priority be a matching set of "fill in the blank" cammo?

This seems to be Moabs situation and I personally think that he is starting from the wrong end of the dealing with shit list.

I still maintain that in a great majority of possible situations the odds whether or not you might be pushing up daisies are higher due to exposure or lack of clean water than they would be because you didn’t have a full cammo rig.

So why start with the cammo (which no matter what percentage of usefulness you care to attach to it is still a crap shoot) when there is a 100% certain chance that you will need some other life saving tool, shelter or skill?

[Kutter_0311]

This is the only pic I have of the OG-107s (and it ain't great or detailed). What they did was clean out a warehouse someplace and issued the old VN uniforms to some units. In the pic you can see a wide variety of uniforms. The BDU came in heavy and a lighter rip-stop. I doubt if many of the lighter BDUs survive because they got run thru pretty quick just like the OGs.


2-87 by mj1015, on Flickr

I loved those OD slantpocket cammies! Had a set as a teenager that I wore till they fell off me!

So glad the MARPAT's brought back the slantpocket style with a bit of an update!

[Uncle Chuck]

Yes in-fuckin'-deedy on the OG-107s for a good looking and comfortable uniform. We were issued them as TA-50 when I was stationed at Bragg way back in the day. We wore the old first generation (complete with disco collar) heavyweight 50/50 NYCO twill BDUs from October through April and then switched to OG-107s for the spring/summer. That only lasted two or three years and then the Army introduced the 100% cotton ripstop hot weather BDUs. Those were actually my favorites. They were a little more durable than the OG-107s and almost as comfortable.

Back to the topic...

I won't get into the ACU/UCP pattern debate because I think the overwhelming evidence is that it sucks. I say this as an infantryman who has worn OG-107s, all generations of woodland BDUs, three color desert DCUs and UCP ACUs. But for a civilian it's nothing a judicious application of spray paint won't fix.

Instead, I'll address the MOLLE gear itself. Personally, I'm not a fan of the MOLLE ruck. At all. Regardless of whether it's woodland, 3 color desert, UCP or OCP (Multicam). Like everything the Army does, it's a compromise designed to fit the 5th through 95th percentile of male and female Soldier torso sizes. In other words, it really doesn't fit anyone. I'm 5'10", so I am just about average height for an American male and the frame is too short for me. I simply can't utilize the hipbelt to transfer weight from my shoulders using the completely useless and non-functional load lifter straps because the hipbelt and shoulder straps are too close together. If you don't know what I'm talking about, go down to REI and try on any civilian external frame pack and you'll see how this concept is SUPPOSED to work. Apparently, the geniuses at Natick have never been backpacking before because they mucked this one all up. To top it all off, the overly rugged 1000 denier cordura fabric is so heavy that the ruck weighs nearly ten pounds empty! The large ALICE was a shitty ruck, but it weighed a heck of a lot less and with aftermarket shoulder straps it was still more comfortable than the MOLLE II ruck. The only good thing about the MOLLE II ruck is that if you are in a unit where you never have to carry the thing, it's a pretty good suitcase because it holds a LOT of stuff. Way too much stuff if you actually have to hump it.

The MOLLE patrol pack is okay, but is also too heavy because of the overly heavy duty construction. But if you can find it cheap enough, it's probably not a bad choice. I use an old Camelbak BFM for my assault pack. I'd upgrade to a Camelbak/Mystery Ranch Tri-Zip if I had the coin to spare, but can't really justify it at this point unless I get deployed again.

The rest of the MOLLE gear, especially the Fighting Load Carrier (FLC) and associated pouches are not bad gear at all, especially if on a budget, and if the ACU (UCP) pattern is the cheapest you can find, then go for it, but skip the MOLLE ruck. You can always touch up the FLC and pouches with spray paint. I've spray painted a few old woodland items desert tan so they would blend in with my UCP kit and it works just fine.

I've never had a problem with ACU pants ripping out crotches or any other durability issues except for some of the velcro wearing out over time. I've noticed that skinny guys like me don't tend to blow out crotches. That seems to be more of an issue for those with chunky thighs. If you fall into that camp, can't help you there. BTW, saw the same issue with the 3 color DCUs, so it's not limited to ACUs.

Bottom line:

MOLLE ruck = bad idea. Save your money for a decent civilian or tacticool ruck if you actually plan on carrying it on long foot movements.

MOLLE patrol pack = so-so gear, but if you can get it at a significant discount over other patrol/assault packs, go for it.

MOLLE FLC = great gear for the price. Sucky camouflage pattern can be mitigated with spray paint.

ACUs = if you're dead set on wearing military clothing and you are on a tight budget, these are okay for the price. You can spay paint uniforms too. There are certainly better choices, and my recommendation is to go with civilian clothes in earth tones.

If the SHTF, I will be wearing ACUs and the attendant UCP kit (if the SHTF happens before I retire from the Guard) but I don't have a choice in the matter. But those of you who don't work for the gubmint have choices and there are lots better (cheap) options out there.

[moab]

"Oh, and for those that shun the cammie INCH BO plan/approaches "Don't want to be mistaken for military"...I'd rather have a 95% chance of being concealed and a 5% chance of being mistaken for military, than having a 50% chance of being noticed period. The benefits of camo in a non-urban environment FAR out-weight the risks.

Regular bug-out? Conservatives earht color clothes. SHTF/roving bands of cut-throats? Cammies."

I couldn't agree more. I will of course wear a civilian top while exiting the city. Just to be on the safe side. But I look personally nothing like someone in the military. I'm to old and I have a huge goatee. Plus I'll have a wife and teenager with me.

I honestly (no disrespect intended) don't understand this huge fear of looking like the military. I mean I don't look like that even in a pair of acu trousers and an acu camo pack. So I doubt very seriously anyone is going to notice whether I am or not. But even if they did. Why does everyone think that everyone is going to have it out for the military in a SHTF situation? Maybe if I was heading east through Compton. I would be worried about looking like that. But on the other hand. You'd be better off to come across as a rifle carrying badass. Than a loan white guy with a bag full of valuable survival stuff on his back and with his wife and kid. In that part of town. Assuming riots ensue.

Then like you say use your cover and concealment (camo and natural terrain) to remain hidden as much as possible. Once your in the bush. I just don't understand why you wouldn't take advantage of camouflage (I can never spell that f'ing wood right! LOL!) to remain hidden from the general populace or the bad guys? Rather than sticking out - whether it be with civilian colors or mixed up camo?

If anything I could see people wanting to team up or go along with you if you were military. Just out of a sense of security. That you could somehow lead them to safety. That I could see happening. I could see that happening even you looked like you had your kit in order and a firearm strapped to your chest. But not them trying to kill you for not wanting to or failing to take them to safety. And I would assume these are unarmed civilians looking for some safety via you and your arms. So your armed and their not. Who walks away? I'd think the guy that was armed. But this is such a "what if" scenario. I just don't see it happening. But maybe someone else can explain this scenario better to me. So that I might understand their fears.

I think a lot depends on where you live too. Here in LA I'd rather be armed. Rather come off like I know what I'm doing with those arms. And show some force. Rather than try to sheepishly wander my way thru some riots or rampaging people. And hope no one notices me. Frankly, anyone with some goods (a backpack or bag full of stuff) is going to be a target I would think. They were in the last riots here. I mean loan people were targets that ended up somehow in the wrong part of town. But in that part of town their going to take you for whatever you have. No matter what your dressed like. (Or even what you have for that matter.) Unless your like those Korean grocers who armed themselves with vests and firearms. And stood off the masses in the last riots. Maybe you remember them on the top of their grocery store firing at looters? They were the only store that didn't get looted and set on fire.

Maybe there's another scenario in another place in America that I'm not thinking of? But riots here aren't going to be like the riots in New Orleans. People here aren't going to just be looking to loot. They're going to be looking to take out any (forgive me for this reference. But it's simply fact from the last two riots here in Los Angeles.) white guy within distance. No matter what your wearing. So if your unfortanate enough to have to travel in that direction. You better be armed to the teeth. And be prepared to fight your way through. And no amount of civilian camouflage (clothes, packs what have you) is going to help you.

For me (on the west side of the city) I will hope that I can travel straight north up the coast. Through Santa Monica and into the hills. And once in the hills try to stay away from as many people as I can. The further north you go the more rural it becomes. There are of course coastal citys. But they can be humped around thru farm land and mountains. For the most part.

As far as worrying about other things besides what I'm wearing like - water filtration systems. It's all being researched and purchased at the same time. I needed to know how much everything was going to cost first. So that I stayed within budget. And could adjust where I needed to spend more money and where I didn't. Water filtration being one of those things you can't skimp on. A Katadyn filter is in the works. I started with the largest most expensive stuff first. So that I knew what camo to buy the small stuff in. Things like pouches, fanny packs, gloves, cold weather attire (I think this is the most expensive though). Once I realized I wasn't going to be able to afford my beloved Marpat or multicam. I adjusted my expectations. And purchased accordingly. But hopefully with the help of some RIT dye and spray paint. I'll be in order.

I've actually thought about carrying spray paint to adjust camo darker as I traveled further north. Or even some packets of RIT dye. ODA did a really nice job on his nephews pack with some spray paint and some stencils. I'll have to ask him how he came up with the stencils. It looked like a darker modified digital.

[moab]

I just solved this whole debate. Sort of. ACU is still less expensive for your base gear. But here's a multicam pack cover for $38. That an a set of multicam cammies puts you entirely in multicam. With the exception of flc, cold weather gear and a hat:

http://www.bushcraftoutfitters.com/Pack ... -cover.htm

Pretty cool set up. And it's rain proof. Might have solved my problem right here.

[Crow]

Being an average joe I didn't know what a BDU was or an ACU, but after reading this thread I said hell no I aint buying ACU stuff. Then I look at the labels of the camo I bought last week. This was my first set ever, and of coarse its freakin ACU! Mother Trucker!! Its ACU!! I did mainly choose it for the color scheme that I thought matched our scenery around here. In the end I am happy with it. Will I be 100% untraceable? nope but close enough for me
**EDIT** Folding the jacket in thirds to keep same amount of material showing as folded in half pants

To feel better about my camo I borrowed a pair of Multicam pants from a friend and went to the woods.

Here is what will be in all the pictures. Even if it cant be seen everything here is in every picture. (Field and stream Blackfoot XL -RealTree pattern, ACU jacket-dont know the pattern label didn't say, multicam pants, small day pack- pattern unknown)




Fixed the blown boxes/packaging yard issue


on the rocks



Add some sunshine and a bit more distance


higher res and more sunshine


Craptastic photo? Everything is hanging in the fallen tree. Packs are on ground in front of it


in the weeds. see if you can find it all =)

[omega_man]

Crow, I don't know what your burning; but...

1. That jacket is a civvy version of woodland MARPAT (Marine Corps digital camo pattern)
2. Those pants are, well, some generic camo Old Navy (and I mean the teenage clothing store, not the branch of service) ???

Nowhere in that picture is there ACU or multicam

[Crow]

2. Lol I was with him when he bought them at the surplus stored on the used rack. He doesn't care they are mainly mess around/work the pasture jeans

1. I assumed it was ACU because of the label:

[omega_man]

All good. That label is mis-leading. It looks to the ACU uniform pattern (i.e. mandarin collar, ass load of velcro, etc...), but in USMC-style camoflage. I think the Brigade QM catalogs and such refer to as digi-cam.

[AKFTW]

Multicam pants

Multicam FYI:

[Blackdog]

I loved those OD slantpocket cammies! Had a set as a teenager that I wore till they fell off me!

So glad the MARPAT's brought back the slantpocket style with a bit of an update!

At least decade after I was issued them my wife made me burn my last pair of 107 pants (by then totally ragged shorts), she said they were too disgusting to look at anymore .

And since I'm at it lets clear the air, I have at least my fair share of surplus cammo junk. I love it, you love it but damn there are more important things.





And to share my love for all you Jarheads out there, how about a little of that marpat stuff.

[moab]

Cool watering trough blackdog! I know - more important things. I just didn't want new people passing on ACU gear just because the pattern isn't perfect. It get's hated on pretty hard around here. And other places. It's good (not great) gear and the cheapest that is out there. Hit it with some RIT dye and your at least in the middle to low end of camo patterns. Or better yet. Buy the pack cover and wear multicam trousers and blouse over it. And you've got the best of both worlds. But at least if I have all ACU to start with. It will RIT dye the same. And you can work with all of it from there. With local foliage, dirt, etc.

[moab]

Being an average joe I didn't know what a BDU was or an ACU, but after reading this thread I said hell no I aint buying ACU stuff. Then I look at the labels of the camo I bought last week. This was my first set ever, and of coarse its freakin ACU! Mother Trucker!! Its ACU!! I did mainly choose it for the color scheme that I thought matched our scenery around here. In the end I am happy with it. Will I be 100% untraceable? nope but close enough for me
**EDIT** Folding the jacket in thirds to keep same amount of material showing as folded in half pants

To feel better about my camo I borrowed a pair of Multicam pants from a friend and went to the woods.

Here is what will be in all the pictures. Even if it cant be seen everything here is in every picture. (Field and stream Blackfoot XL -RealTree pattern, ACU jacket-dont know the pattern label didn't say, multicam pants, small day pack- pattern unknown)

Add some sunshine and a bit more distance


higher res and more sunshine


Craptastic photo? Everything is hanging in the fallen tree. Packs are on ground in front of it


in the weeds. see if you can find it all =)

crow - I think your pics at least illustrate that any camo is better than no camo. Each of your patterns at least blended in at relatively close distances. Where as solids would not have. To bad you don't have some ACU to compare.

Great pics. Thanks for all the effort.

[Canadian Guy]

At least decade after I was issued them my wife made me burn my last pair of 107 pants (by then totally ragged shorts), she said they were too disgusting to look at anymore .

And since I'm at it lets clear the air, I have at least my fair share of surplus cammo junk. I love it, you love it but damn there are more important things.

Including that nice Canadian Airborne Regiment smock that you were wearing in the WMBO photos you posted, where did you get that as they aren't the most common of surplus items out there?

[6UNF1GHTER]

ODA did a really nice job on his nephews pack with some spray paint and some stencils. I'll have to ask him how he came up with the stencils. It looked like a darker modified digital.

Was this posted on here?
Can I get a linky please?

Tanks-

[Polley]

Just felt like throwing this in: deer do not make for good camouflage tests. Where I hunt from, the orange a hunter must wear cannot be mixed with camo: it has to be a solid colour. Even if they're colourblind, they'll see the two solid blobs consisting of my hat and vest walking towards them. That being said, by moving about five inches at a time, I crawled 75 yards towards a deer through a corn field when it looked away. It took about 45 minutes or more and by the time I got to it, it was too dark to use my iron sights (fail). However, I ended up about twenty-five feet away from it. If you move slow, they won't see you. I've proven this with blue jeans and a bright red shirt before, as well. Deer are colourblind and sensitive to movement. Their vision really isn't all that precise to begin with. Camouflage helps blend you in to their already-bad vision, but it really isn't necessary as long as you stay stationary or, at the very least, move slowly.

That being said, the only camouflage I have are old woodland BDUs.

[Jeriah]

PS, I recently paid 135 for a mossberg 500.....

$10 more than I paid for mine, but if your stock wasn't cracked, I'd say you got at least as good a deal as I did.

[AKFTW]

At some point when I liberate my camo collection from my ex's closet, I'll post some pics. I have probably a dozen patterns, and each has a purpose (or just looks really cool). I don't buy the idea of a universal camouflage pattern for a second- Iook at how the colors of nature change with the seasons, just in your immediate AO! I'd rather be able to blend and adapt to what it looks like in the specific time frame and area I will be in. Two of my favorite patterns, both flecktarn-based:

Flectar-D

Type 03 Plateau


Get some universally colored web gear like Ranger Green or Coyote Brown based on dominant colors in your AO, then get patterns to match the seasons and surroundings. Anything that's "universal" will be sub-optimal, and in the case of ACU, it's universally BAD.

[Polley]

For the winter, I've found that wearing my heavier woodland-pattern stuff keeps me really warm. Since I don't really have a "rig" (yet), I just put a white lab frock over it. It actually works decently well (at least for critters: not so sure about humans). I got within pistol range of a deer by simply walking upright towards it slowly. One of my classmates said she uses the same technique for coyote hunting and it also works well for that. Since we have a slaughterhouse, we have several dozens of these things. Free, lowest-grade winter camouflage win!

So yeah, I'm totally in the market for some autumn and winter camouflage. AKFTW, I like what I see.