MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby Greg Focker » Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:44 pm

Vicarious_Lee wrote:I like May 19-20. Also, I thought this was gonna be at MilCopp proper in Ohio. Where's the location so I can map it from where I am now.

We are currently trying to get the range at Big Piney Sportsmen's Club in Missouri. It has a shoot-house (90° of fire only, but it's a shoot-house) and a range out to 800 yards. Braxton's folks have 150 acres about five miles from the range, and Braxton has generously offered to let us camp on his property.



doc66 wrote:So what weekend are we talking here? Time to pick one. We have other ranges and commitments we'd like to start setting up schedules with and do not want to have a class scheduled that would overlap and nix this. While it is only February, trust me, this stuff comes up faster than anticipated.

I'm waiting on Gravedigger4 to get back to me with a "it's confirmed we can have the range" PM. Once we have that nailed down I can get a lot more movement on this. I think a range with the combination of a shoot-house and shooting out to 800 yards (not that I expect we'll be shooting that far) has a lot of people excited for this class, myself included*. Everyone just chill out until we know if we can use their range.



*I live in Ohio. A class in Ohio would be a MUCH shorter drive. I'm willing to drive an extra 10 hours each way if it means getting to stretch my carbine's legs and getting to use a shoot-house.


Remember: we are waiting on confirmation from Big Piney. In the mean time, let's all try to be like Fonzie. :lol:
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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby Vicarious_Lee » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:05 pm

Braxton wrote:There are two bathrooms, I don't think a trench shitter is going to be necessary.



This class is going to FUCKING ROCK.


So we'll be sleeping outside, but we've got modern bathrooms and electricity? Also Braxton, I checked the location to mine that you PM-ed me. That's less than half the distance to MilCopp. I can make it in under 9 hours, and would have no problem whatsoever driving myself that distance.

I've said it before: Right now I have boners in places I didn't even know I had dicks. :D :D :D

Get me a date and let me see if I can bring up a few more folks.
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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby nimdabew » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:09 pm

May 19-20 will not work for me. No vacation time that ONE week of the year. That and the vacation schedule is already full up.
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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby OhioMe » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:35 pm

May 16-20 looks booked up there anyway. According to the schedule page on their forum:

05 May Service rifle match. 9:00 am.
05 May IDPA type defensive handgun match. 9:00 am
10 May Board meeting. 6:00 pm
12 May Men’s ministry trap shoot. 8:00 am.
16/17/18/19 May Law Enforcement Precision Marksman / Observer Course.
20 May Multi-range F-Class Rifle Match / multi-gun match. 9:00 am.

26 May 600 yd CF bench rest. 10:00 am. 50 yd .17/.22 RF bench rest. Noon.


I'm about 90 minutes away from even Greg Fokker, and I'm also willing to do the traveling/car pool/fly for a class w/ such potential range and facilities. The hard work is being done by people like GD4 and GF to set this whole thing up. Especially GD4 doing the footwork and lining up leave etc. I'd love a 4 hrs. away Ohio course too, if this one doesn't work out for some reason. So lets stop suggesting new date as and table settings until we at least have a preliminary idea what the centerpieces are ( my eyes are blue, if so we can get something to match that'd be lurveley).

I'm in this for the class w/ a group of people that I know are unlikely to accidentally shoot me during a drill, not the campfire songs and smores. The odds of an intentional accidental shooting not withstanding.


edit: IIRC GD4's post was scoping out the weekend of 5/12. I'm DFW datewise as long as we pick the date in enough time to guarantee the Mrs. is not on call for those days.
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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby Braxton » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:56 pm

Vicarious_Lee wrote:
Braxton wrote:There are two bathrooms, I don't think a trench shitter is going to be necessary.



This class is going to FUCKING ROCK.


So we'll be sleeping outside, but we've got modern bathrooms and electricity? .


You can even take a shower. There are two bathrooms and two showers.

If that's not your thing, there are several nice Hotels/Motels in the area.
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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby nimdabew » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:59 pm

Braxton wrote:You can even take a shower. There are two bathrooms and two showers.

Wow. Showers and flush toilets? Whats not to love?
Thanks Anianna!
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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby Vicarious_Lee » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:42 pm

Braxton wrote:
Vicarious_Lee wrote:
Braxton wrote:There are two bathrooms, I don't think a trench shitter is going to be necessary.



This class is going to FUCKING ROCK.


So we'll be sleeping outside, but we've got modern bathrooms and electricity? .


You can even take a shower. There are two bathrooms and two showers.

If that's not your thing, there are several nice Hotels/Motels in the area.


Are you kidding me? The only thing I hate about camping is no hot running water. Camping next to running hot water and electricity is like my favorite thing ever. Just last night my wife OK'd me to go to Ohio for this. It's as close to 100% definitely on at this point as I'll ever get.

This is going to be awesome.
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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby gravediggerfour » Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:57 pm

Now that my class has graduated I have sent an email to the president of the club to find out some more info as to hosting the class at BPSC. Once I get a response I will let everyone know what is up.

Also awaiting a call from Doc...hint hint.
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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby doc66 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:42 pm

gravediggerfour wrote:Now that my class has graduated I have sent an email to the president of the club to find out some more info as to hosting the class at BPSC. Once I get a response I will let everyone know what is up.

Also awaiting a call from Doc...hint hint.


Shit. I got busy with this last class and forgot. Tomorrow.
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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby gravediggerfour » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:45 pm

doc66 wrote:
gravediggerfour wrote:Now that my class has graduated I have sent an email to the president of the club to find out some more info as to hosting the class at BPSC. Once I get a response I will let everyone know what is up.

Also awaiting a call from Doc...hint hint.


Shit. I got busy with this last class and forgot. Tomorrow.


Its cool brother, call anytime after lunch.
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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby gravediggerfour » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:37 pm

Ok got a email the email back, from the sound of it we got use of the valley part of the range for saturday 12 may and can have the flat range out to 600 for sunday. That gives us use of out to around 100 meters and the shoot house day one and day two if need be. Once I talk to doc and get some actual face time with the prez to hammer out range fee's which normally run 10-25 dollars per student. Also will try and get us access to the range shack with two restrooms and a few pay on your own stocked refrigerators.

There are a few open weekends as of now in june but that does not work with my schedule at all. Not to be a dick but if I'm coordinating this goat fuck I'm holding the horns. :twisted: If how ever this works better for Doc and Dave Ill still coordinate and just make an appearance.

If all works out I can receive ammo shipments and pick up flyer's if need be from STL or Springfield airports depending on which one is cheaper.

Will keep everyone posted.
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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby Vicarious_Lee » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:27 am

Just to be clear, I'm a bit of a noob and probably much closer to "Rifle I" than a "Rifle II" class. I know Dave and Doc aren't going to put anyone where they don't belong, but I don't want to slow anyone down. I see a lot of multiple-time alumni in this discussion, but I also hear that some first-timers are coming as well.

I don't want to slow anyone down, but even if I have to sit some advanced drills out, this is about the best opportunity for me to ever attend. I've got open-ended days off, child care with grandparents, only a day's drive to get there, and even a place to stay.

I'm doing this, I just don't want to be dragging the class down if I do.
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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby nimdabew » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:09 am

Vicarious_Lee wrote:Just to be clear, I'm a bit of a noob and probably much closer to "Rifle I" than a "Rifle II" class. I know Dave and Doc aren't going to put anyone where they don't belong, but I don't want to slow anyone down. I see a lot of multiple-time alumni in this discussion, but I also hear that some first-timers are coming as well.

I don't want to slow anyone down, but even if I have to sit some advanced drills out, this is about the best opportunity for me to ever attend. I've got open-ended days off, child care with grandparents, only a day's drive to get there, and even a place to stay.

I'm doing this, I just don't want to be dragging the class down if I do.

VL, we won't point and laugh, we will help you become a better shooter. Dave and Doc will be tailoring the class for the median of the class. There is always going to be more advanced shooters and less advanced shooters in every class. It will be like drinking from a fire hose, but it will be fun. Just come out and have fun, blast some targets, and learn how to kill two legged creatures without getting any new holes in ya. The drinking and shenanigans afterwards are just a bonus :D
Thanks Anianna!
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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby Bearcat » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:29 am

Kutter_0311 wrote:
crypto wrote:
Bearcat wrote:Greg you are right, I just misread the state abbreviation MO as Montana not Missouri.
Maybe you should stay home and hit the books, dude. :D

Don't say that! That's why he missed Day 2 last time!

(We all thought he was Raptured...)

That won't be the problem this time, funds are.
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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby drewder » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:52 pm

Vicarious_Lee wrote:Just to be clear, I'm a bit of a noob and probably much closer to "Rifle I" than a "Rifle II" class. I know Dave and Doc aren't going to put anyone where they don't belong, but I don't want to slow anyone down. I see a lot of multiple-time alumni in this discussion, but I also hear that some first-timers are coming as well.

I don't want to slow anyone down, but even if I have to sit some advanced drills out, this is about the best opportunity for me to ever attend. I've got open-ended days off, child care with grandparents, only a day's drive to get there, and even a place to stay.

I'm doing this, I just don't want to be dragging the class down if I do.



Yeah, I was having this same thought as well. But with everything lining up the way it has, how could I pass up this class?

Also, I can pick up people from the airport in STL if needed and we could carpool there.
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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby TheLastOne » Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:48 pm

drewder wrote:
Vicarious_Lee wrote:Just to be clear, I'm a bit of a noob and probably much closer to "Rifle I" than a "Rifle II" class. I know Dave and Doc aren't going to put anyone where they don't belong, but I don't want to slow anyone down. I see a lot of multiple-time alumni in this discussion, but I also hear that some first-timers are coming as well.

I don't want to slow anyone down, but even if I have to sit some advanced drills out, this is about the best opportunity for me to ever attend. I've got open-ended days off, child care with grandparents, only a day's drive to get there, and even a place to stay.

I'm doing this, I just don't want to be dragging the class down if I do.



Yeah, I was having this same thought as well. But with everything lining up the way it has, how could I pass up this class?




I would like to run for office of FNG #3. I gotta start somewhere, and dammit MO is closer than SC. There are some supposedly-legit classes here in town that I might try to hit to get my feet wet before then.
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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby nimdabew » Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:13 pm

Depending on the situation at the time, I will see if I can bring some toys beyond rifle/pistol with me. More updates as they come.
Thanks Anianna!
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12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:I say when Wee Drop visits the US, we make her ride a goat. You know, like those little monkey cowboys they have at some rodeos. :lol:
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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby Vicarious_Lee » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:48 am

I was reading the "Tactical Rifle/Carbine Course Level 1" requirements and description on MilCopp's website just now. I'm just throwing this out there: Would there be enough interest or necessity or usefulness to offer this class on the preceding Friday for newer shooters?

I don't know enough either way, but I know that I've got almost no training in transitions, reloads from a chest rig, and well, basically everything else in the course description. I'd be more than willing to do a 3-day (and pay for it, and bring the extra ammo) if it is a good idea.


Also, I wear impact-resistant glasses which are not wraparound shooting glasses. Should I get contacts and shooting glasses, or are there shooter's goggles that accommodate glasses?

From the gear list, I've got everything else but a sling at this point, including a light and optic.

EDIT: Also just revisited Dave's "The Weight Of a Rifle" piece. I'm starting a strength/lumbar stabilization/endurance program already, but was wondering if there are any specific upper-body exercises that can help my muscles prepare for the maneuvers.

I mean, pushups, dips, and outstretched carries, of course. Just wondering if there's anything more specific out there.
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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby Jeriah » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:03 am

gravediggerfour wrote:Ok got a email the email back, from the sound of it we got use of the valley part of the range for saturday 12 may andcan have the flat range out to 600 for sunday.


So, this date has officially been roofied, gagged, duct-taped, and thrown in the trunk, then?

That is literally the first weekend after the end of the college semester for me, which is actually awesome as it means that I will be done teaching and ready to wipe my brain clean of their excuses and lies with beer and bang-bang. Steph too. I may have some art center teaching but that shit doesn't happen on the weekend anyway so a Friday-to-Monday (driving inclusive) should be doable.

Two weekends later I'm flying to CA to go to Yosemite with my family like I try to do every year or so, but no reason I can't do both.

Money is tight as always for me, but Steph got herself a full time job so maybe she can play sugar momma for me.

Been talking to some ZS20 locals about a range day to get her warmed up, and I FINALLY did what Dave suggested like five years ago and got a gooseneck A2 mount to put a red dot on my AR. It'll be an el cheapo RDS on a USGI rail with an additional slot filed out of it, because I'm not buying good shit til I know it'll work with my stupid eye thing. Need to get that mounted and taken to a range to make sure it works before the course. And hey, if it shits the bed, I've got irons ready to go.
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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby Greg Focker » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:16 am

Jeriah wrote:Been talking to some ZS20 locals about a range day to get her warmed up, and I FINALLY did what Dave suggested like five years ago and got a gooseneck A2 mount to put a red dot on my AR. It'll be an el cheapo RDS on a USGI rail with an additional slot filed out of it, because I'm not buying good shit til I know it'll work with my stupid eye thing. Need to get that mounted and taken to a range to make sure it works before the course. And hey, if it shits the bed, I've got irons ready to go.

If you want I can bring down my spare Aimpoint R1 and you can mount that on the gooseneck for the duration of the class.
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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby Raptor 6 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:13 am

So it looks like im not the only one with concerns about not being able to keep up. Like Vicarious Lee i was thinking the same thing about running a level 1 course before jumping into this head first. Im going to drag Jeriah to a range and let him run me thur some of the paces just to see how well i do and if nothing else im sure ill learn something from him.
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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby doc66 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:18 am

PMs sent....
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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby Jeriah » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:37 am

Greg Focker wrote:
Jeriah wrote:Been talking to some ZS20 locals about a range day to get her warmed up, and I FINALLY did what Dave suggested like five years ago and got a gooseneck A2 mount to put a red dot on my AR. It'll be an el cheapo RDS on a USGI rail with an additional slot filed out of it, because I'm not buying good shit til I know it'll work with my stupid eye thing. Need to get that mounted and taken to a range to make sure it works before the course. And hey, if it shits the bed, I've got irons ready to go.

If you want I can bring down my spare Aimpoint R1 and you can mount that on the gooseneck for the duration of the class.


That would be rad, but then we'd have to zero it, right? I think I'll throw my wife's el cheapo on there as a proof of concept (she's not using it), and if it works at the range, by which I mean works for me even shooting weak side, then I'll either leave it on there or buy myself a cheapo for the course. If it shits the bed, hey, I can work with irons, strong side at least. But either way, if the concept works then I'll buy myself a good RDS (maybe an R1 or...T1?...H1? The not-silver, not-NV one) and a good gooseneck.

Raptor 6 wrote:So it looks like im not the only one with concerns about not being able to keep up. Like Vicarious Lee i was thinking the same thing about running a level 1 course before jumping into this head first. Im going to drag Jeriah to a range and let him run me thur some of the paces just to see how well i do and if nothing else im sure ill learn something from him.


Yes, let's do that. The things you want to be able to do, that we can work on at a static range, are:

1. Be able to maintain a reasonable accuracy standard at a given range. The circle you get by tracing a CD or a roll of masking tape is about the size target you need to be able to reliably hit at a given range to be effective at that range. This is first. Do this with both your rifle and your pistol.

2. Get in the habit of a speed/tactical/emergency reload. Here is how you do that with an AR: When the mag goes empty (you feel the bolt lock back), hit the mag release with the index finger of your strong hand, allowing the mag to drop free to the ground. Do not attempt to grab the mag and stick it in a dump pouch! Let it fall. While that's happening, your weak hand is going to the place on your rig where you keep your first reload: usually left side of the chest rig. Grab it using either a beer can grip (what I prefer) or indexing your index finger along the spine of the mag, and insert it firmly into the mag well. Push it in and pull it out to make sure it's locked in place. Then hit the bolt catch with your strong hand (some people advocate using the charging handle instead), put your weak hand back on the fore-end, and get back in the fight. Your strong hand never leaves the pistol grip, and your weapon stays pointed at the target the entire time.

3. Transition to your pistol. This is something we actually can't do at Jasper-Pulaski, as Illinois residents can't shoot pistols at Indiana DNR ranges...actually that may change if you get a City of Chicago pistol card, but a FOID isn't good enough. Anyway, you want to be in the habit of, if your rifle goes dry or shits the bed, and your target is in pistol range, to take your strong hand off your rifle, guide it down on the sling using your weak hand, and draw your pistol using your strong hand. Your weak hand comes up to meet the pistol so you can shoot two-handed.

4. Everything you do, you should be able to do left- or right-handed. Not necessarily equally well, although that would be nice, but you need to be able to do it effectively, because sometimes that's where the cover is.

OK, that's what comes to mind right away.
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Re: MilCopp Spring 2012 class discussion

Postby TheLastOne » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:00 am

Vicarious_Lee wrote:I was reading the "Tactical Rifle/Carbine Course Level 1" requirements and description on MilCopp's website just now. I'm just throwing this out there: Would there be enough interest or necessity or usefulness to offer this class on the preceding Friday for newer shooters?

I don't know enough either way, but I know that I've got almost no training in transitions, reloads from a chest rig, and well, basically everything else in the course description. I'd be more than willing to do a 3-day (and pay for it, and bring the extra ammo) if it is a good idea.


Also, I wear impact-resistant glasses which are not wraparound shooting glasses. Should I get contacts and shooting glasses, or are there shooter's goggles that accommodate glasses?

From the gear list, I've got everything else but a sling at this point, including a light and optic.

EDIT: Also just revisited Dave's "The Weight Of a Rifle" piece. I'm starting a strength/lumbar stabilization/endurance program already, but was wondering if there are any specific upper-body exercises that can help my muscles prepare for the maneuvers.

I mean, pushups, dips, and outstretched carries, of course. Just wondering if there's anything more specific out there.


If this all comes to be, I'd be down for a noob Friday too (if I'm able to get time off yadayada).
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