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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:16 am 
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Sen wrote:
You can't load 5.7 rounds with normal 5.56 bullets, they are too heavy. The 5.7 doesn't have enough powder to remove the bullet from the casing most of the time.


I would say the powder is less an issue than the different bore size. Although I have a hard time seeing the charge that pushes a 31gr bullet could get good results from a 55gr or 62gr bullet.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:20 am 
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Doc Torr wrote:
Sen wrote:
You can't load 5.7 rounds with normal 5.56 bullets, they are too heavy. The 5.7 doesn't have enough powder to remove the bullet from the casing most of the time.


I would say the powder is less an issue than the different bore size. Although I have a hard time seeing the charge that pushes a 31gr bullet could get good results from a 55gr or 62gr bullet.



Then you use different powder. Not all powders are equal. Not something I would play with as my calculations would be off and I would explode my receiver. But, there are plenty of knowledgeable folks that would play with it.

And the bold print would be the problem. But, if it makes it's mark in the shooting community, somebody will make a proper heavier round.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:53 pm 
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Sen wrote:
You can't load 5.7 rounds with normal 5.56 bullets, they are too heavy. The 5.7 doesn't have enough powder to remove the bullet from the casing most of the time.


This is incorrect.

The 5.7x28 can use all 5.56 projectiles up to 55grs. The elite Penetrator loading launches a 55gr FMJ at 1800fps for 350ftlbs of energy. If you reload for 5.56 the same 55gr FMJ can be shared between them.

The reason it can't use the 62gr penetrator and other heavier projectiles is because they are too long. It had nothing to do with power.


The TCM might be able to chamber the stuby little 35gr Vmax, time will tell. I also think a JSP round might be viable.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:18 pm 
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Seemed to be quite a bit of discussion about this round here. We got one in and did some comparison testing vs 9mm and .45 ACP. It was anecdotal to a degree but:

The TCM rounds out penetrated 9mm and .45 ball in bulletproof glass. .45 had little penetration, 9mm went half way in and .22 TCM went 3/4 of the way through (enough to bubble the back of the glass). These were at short ranges (less than 10 feet). 9mm was out of a glock 19, .45 was out of an HK.

Vs smoked ham:
The 22 tcm hollow points were between a 9mm HP and a .45 HP. We should have some video sometime this week of the ham destruction. (The 12 gauge with tungsten 00 buck won btw :D )

I'll link the video when we get them back from the guy who did the shooting.

Aside from ballistics the gun functioned flawlessly with both .22 tcm and 9mm ball. No failures what so ever. It was accurate enough to hit 6 inch plates at 50 feet. Felt recoil is very very light, it's not a 22lr but was noticeably lighter than 9mm from the same gun. It's very loud but didn't bother me with just plugs in. The sights suck for anything but target shooting, the safety was very stiff and the 22 tcm extractor is a pita to remove in order to switch to the 9mm. Those gripes aside, I ended up buying it before it went on the shelf at our shop, It will likely be my carry gun (with 9mm) for a bit and with some tweaks will be my pick for action pistol shoots.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:23 pm 
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HavocWorks wrote:
Seemed to be quite a bit of discussion about this round here. We got one in and did some comparison testing vs 9mm and .45 ACP. It was anecdotal to a degree but:

The TCM rounds out penetrated 9mm and .45 ball in bulletproof glass. .45 had little penetration, 9mm went half way in and .22 TCM went 3/4 of the way through (enough to bubble the back of the glass). These were at short ranges (less than 10 feet). 9mm was out of a glock 19, .45 was out of an HK.

Vs smoked ham:
The 22 tcm hollow points were between a 9mm HP and a .45 HP. We should have some video sometime this week of the ham destruction. (The 12 gauge with tungsten 00 buck won btw :D )

I'll link the video when we get them back from the guy who did the shooting.

Aside from ballistics the gun functioned flawlessly with both .22 tcm and 9mm ball. No failures what so ever. It was accurate enough to hit 6 inch plates at 50 feet. Felt recoil is very very light, it's not a 22lr but was noticeably lighter than 9mm from the same gun. It's very loud but didn't bother me with just plugs in. The sights suck for anything but target shooting, the safety was very stiff and the 22 tcm extractor is a pita to remove in order to switch to the 9mm. Those gripes aside, I ended up buying it before it went on the shelf at our shop, It will likely be my carry gun (with 9mm) for a bit and with some tweaks will be my pick for action pistol shoots.


Huh- didn't know it needed a new extractor to switch, I thought the case rims were the same as 9mm?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:43 pm 
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The barrel extractor and recoil spring had to be changed. The cases have a slightly smaller diameter than 9mm and were within a few thou of .223 case according to my calipers

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:26 am 
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HavocWorks wrote:
The barrel extractor and recoil spring had to be changed. The cases have a slightly smaller diameter than 9mm and were within a few thou of .223 case according to my calipers


As someone who was really looking forward to the .22 TCM I must say I am disappointed to hear that.

How much 'slightly smaller' are we talking about at the rim?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:22 am 
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Einher wrote:
HavocWorks wrote:
The barrel extractor and recoil spring had to be changed. The cases have a slightly smaller diameter than 9mm and were within a few thou of .223 case according to my calipers


As someone who was really looking forward to the .22 TCM I must say I am disappointed to hear that.

How much 'slightly smaller' are we talking about at the rim?


yea that is kind of a downer. :?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:24 am 
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gelgoog wrote:
Einher wrote:
HavocWorks wrote:
The barrel extractor and recoil spring had to be changed. The cases have a slightly smaller diameter than 9mm and were within a few thou of .223 case according to my calipers


As someone who was really looking forward to the .22 TCM I must say I am disappointed to hear that.

How much 'slightly smaller' are we talking about at the rim?


yea that is kind of a downer. :?


Dealbreaker for me. If it's not a direct barrel swap, screw that. This round will die a slow death into obscurity like the other .22 bottleneck wildcats, as now it offers nothing over something like the 5.7, which is super popular compared to this new round.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:49 pm 
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.02 or so of an inch I think. I will double check tomorrow when I am near some calipers. It did hand cycle 9mm with the 22tcm extractor but I wasn't brave enough to actually fire it that way.

Being a 1911 design if it weren't for the tight extractor fit it would take less than 5 minutes to change everything. If the extractor just slid out like the one in my .45 does I wouldn't have any issue with it at all.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:14 pm 
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HavocWorks wrote:
.02 or so of an inch I think. I will double check tomorrow when I am near some calipers. It did hand cycle 9mm with the 22tcm extractor but I wasn't brave enough to actually fire it that way.


I would appreciate that.

HavocWorks wrote:
Being a 1911 design if it weren't for the tight extractor fit it would take less than 5 minutes to change everything. If the extractor just slid out like the one in my .45 does I wouldn't have any issue with it at all.


I think the big concern here is that if it weren't necessary to change the extractor at all it could take less than 30 seconds on a 1911, and significantly less time than that for some other handgun designs.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:49 am 
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I just can't see it NEEDING a different extractor.

My HK4 uses the very same extractor for 22lr as it does for .380acp. And that difference is far far greater than .02 of an inch. On the .380 it hangs out like a loaded chamber indicator but on .22 its flush.



More than likely they gave you en extra extractor thats a bit bigger because they thought not everyone would ever fire .22tcm out of the gun anyways. And some people probably complained about their extractors hanging out farther than they are used to.


Put the bigger extractor in ans try it using both calibers.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:54 am 
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We are going out to the range again Sunday, I'll switch the TCM extractor in and try it with some 9mm.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:24 pm 
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The rim of the 22 TCM is .363 (fired case), 9mm is .3845 (unfired case).

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:48 pm 
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HavocWorks wrote:
The rim of the 22 TCM is .363 (fired case), 9mm is .3845 (unfired case).


A difference of 0.0215" (I'm assuming your measurements are in inches anyway) at the rim hardly seems like a dangerous margin in terms of potential health hazard or parts malfunction/excessive wear.

I'll wait for the results from your range test before I come back from the edge of wanting/not-wanting one, but it sounds like there shouldn't be a problem using either extractor with either cartridge.

Again, I truly do appreciate your diligence in taking the time to check this out.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:50 pm 
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I have a softspot for little fireplug cartridges, I hunt a a couple of BR variants, in .22, 7mm, .30 and am looking at a 6.5 right now. I do a lot of NBRSA with different PPC's. That being said - this new .22 just doesnt pass muster. A 22 caliber, moderate to high velocity cartridge, capable of working with existing weapons already exists. The .224 BOZ will fire most bullets up to 62 grains although 50 is considered 'ideal'. Based on the 10mm and using a packed case of slow to medium powders, 2400 fps with a 55 gr bullet is doable. The problem was a bit of patent crud, namely that the developer would only export (from UK) to LEO and military clients. I ended up with a set of dies and a few accessories and have done some hands on research - while it would be ideal for varmints out of a light bolt gun, and fantastic in a PDW setting such as a mp/5 where you have a spray and pray option, it just does not work as a fight stopper in a standard pistol platform. Loaded with something like the Speer TNT varmint bullet you could count on fragmentation but with little penetration, change to a solid or partition and expansion will suffer.
When it comes to a defensive situation, the goal is to let all the "want to do bad" out of a person as quickly as possible - bigger holes mean it gets out faster.

There is not really anything new in the cartridge world that is not just better marketing. Rifle or pistol - the examples are enormous.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:40 pm 
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So SRO1911 just where can I get a box or three of those .224 BOZ rounds?
And how much are they again?
What mags does that round use? I hope not their own.



Funny how a few people are making huge claims for this round and the designer and manufacturer haven't made any yet. Other than "Hey look at this one. Why not try it out?"



And yes I did think of the BOZ when I heard about this round but having NEVER really seen a BOZ round in real life I thought this one might just be easier to find.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:47 pm 
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I fired a mag of 9 with the .22tcm extractor. No explosions or "bad" that I could tell by looking.

Gelatin tests would be nice but until then we will have to wait and see. In a hard target at combat ranges the tcm with an exposed lead hollowpoint out penetrated 9mm ball and 45 ball. In a pork shoulder the damage was greater than a 9mm HP but less than a 45HP (though it sent meaty bits a good deal further). With our random-shoot-stuff testing I can't say much more than that.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:54 pm 
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HavocWorks wrote:
I fired a mag of 9 with the .22tcm extractor. No explosions or "bad" that I could tell by looking.


Well, that's definitely good news anyway.

I guess I'm now back to wanting one; assuming the marketing of the cartridge can prove it's not DOA.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:58 pm 
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HavocWorks wrote:
I fired a mag of 9 with the .22tcm extractor. No explosions or "bad" that I could tell by looking.

Gelatin tests would be nice but until then we will have to wait and see. In a hard target at combat ranges the tcm with an exposed lead hollowpoint out penetrated 9mm ball and 45 ball. In a pork shoulder the damage was greater than a 9mm HP but less than a 45HP (though it sent meaty bits a good deal further). With our random-shoot-stuff testing I can't say much more than that.


What about .22TCM with the 9mm Extractor? I'm sure that's what everyone is interested in, because of the potential for drop-in barrel conversions. I swear, if this round takes off and they have FMJs available, I will buy a Glock 17L and a Sub-2000 and have them both converted to .22TCM (drop in barrel for the glock). The Sub-2000 with this round and 33rd Glock mags could be a fire-breathing, folding PDW of ultimate win. And the Glock 17L would be a Halo sniper pistol. :D

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:01 pm 
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MacAttack wrote:
So SRO1911 just where can I get a box or three of those .224 BOZ rounds?
And how much are they again?
What mags does that round use? I hope not their own.



Funny how a few people are making huge claims for this round and the designer and manufacturer haven't made any yet. Other than "Hey look at this one. Why not try it out?"



And yes I did think of the BOZ when I heard about this round but having NEVER really seen a BOZ round in real life I thought this one might just be easier to find.


Probably much easier to find... Want some BOZ ammo? No problem, roll your own. Dies are fairly easy - just be ready to pay through the nose. Its getting your hands on a chamber reamer that will put the brakes on a build or it has mine at least. Standard 10mm mags work. Having shot it i can tell you its not going to be the end all be all - no single round is. I like accurate, efficient cartridges with little to no recoil. I hunt with a 7mmBR quite a bit as well as a 6mmPPC - dont use much powder, not too much noise, no recoil. The BOZ will fit that bill nicely. I will eventually have one in either a light rifle, such as a rem model 7 or sako vixen, or a bolt pistol - probably a savage striker since it is getting harder to find XP-100s and I hate to cut them up.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:45 pm 
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SRO1911 wrote:
MacAttack wrote:
So SRO1911 just where can I get a box or three of those .224 BOZ rounds?
And how much are they again?
What mags does that round use? I hope not their own.

Funny how a few people are making huge claims for this round and the designer and manufacturer haven't made any yet. Other than "Hey look at this one. Why not try it out?"

And yes I did think of the BOZ when I heard about this round but having NEVER really seen a BOZ round in real life I thought this one might just be easier to find.


Probably much easier to find... Want some BOZ ammo? No problem, roll your own. Dies are fairly easy - just be ready to pay through the nose. Its getting your hands on a chamber reamer that will put the brakes on a build or it has mine at least. Standard 10mm mags work. Having shot it i can tell you its not going to be the end all be all - no single round is. I like accurate, efficient cartridges with little to no recoil. I hunt with a 7mmBR quite a bit as well as a 6mmPPC - dont use much powder, not too much noise, no recoil. The BOZ will fit that bill nicely. I will eventually have one in either a light rifle, such as a rem model 7 or sako vixen, or a bolt pistol - probably a savage striker since it is getting harder to find XP-100s and I hate to cut them up.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:49 pm 
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AKFTW wrote:
HavocWorks wrote:
I fired a mag of 9 with the .22tcm extractor. No explosions or "bad" that I could tell by looking.

Gelatin tests would be nice but until then we will have to wait and see. In a hard target at combat ranges the tcm with an exposed lead hollowpoint out penetrated 9mm ball and 45 ball. In a pork shoulder the damage was greater than a 9mm HP but less than a 45HP (though it sent meaty bits a good deal further). With our random-shoot-stuff testing I can't say much more than that.


What about .22TCM with the 9mm Extractor? I'm sure that's what everyone is interested in, because of the potential for drop-in barrel conversions. I swear, if this round takes off and they have FMJs available, I will buy a Glock 17L and a Sub-2000 and have them both converted to .22TCM (drop in barrel for the glock). The Sub-2000 with this round and 33rd Glock mags could be a fire-breathing, folding PDW of ultimate win. And the Glock 17L would be a Halo sniper pistol. :D


I'll give it a shot when I get some more TCM ammo in.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:50 pm 
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I like the concept but i am all ready "in Bed" with the fiveseven, it would be fun if i knew someone with a TCM so we could compare the two.


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