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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:06 am 
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AKFTW wrote:
MacAttack wrote:
How about a full auto M-11? just switch out the barrels and use the same 30 round 9mm mags.

Every 9mm carbine or pistol could be converted to this round very simply. And it would use a standard .22/.223/5.56 suppressor.


See THIS is where I think this round has potential over 5.7, 4.6, and other small pistol "PDW" calibers before it. If they can make a drop-in conversion barrel for 9mm Glocks for around $100 (lone wolf, are you listening?), this round could really gain a following. The fact that you can convert basically any 9mm to this round (in theory) makes it a serious contender IMO.


This.

But such a conversion seems like such an obvious boon, I wondered why no one has tried it before? Then it occurred to me, that the interchangeability could also be the achilles heel of the whole enterprise. Couldn't the .22 TCM be accidentally fired in a 9mm firearm?

KABOOM!

Of course a person would have to be an idiot to load such an obviously different cartridge as the .22 TCM into a 9mm firearm. But that's what many product liability lawsuits are made from. Attempts to idiot-proof the world.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:20 am 
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gunsandrockets wrote:
This.

But such a conversion seems like such an obvious boon, I wondered why no one has tried it before? Then it occurred to me, that the interchangeability could also be the achilles heel of the whole enterprise. Couldn't the .22 TCM be accidentally fired in a 9mm firearm?

KABOOM!

Of course a person would have to be an idiot to load such an obviously different cartridge as the .22 TCM into a 9mm firearm. But that's what many product liability lawsuits are made from. Attempts to idiot-proof the world.


You can't fix stupid. A .17HMR can be loaded into a .22mag, but that hasn't been an issue I don't think. The point being, there are multiple rounds that can be erroneously loaded into the wrong gun. If you do that, that's all you. You obviously didn't load the firearm to the manufacturers suggestion, nor did you listen to the advice of the retarded kid down the street when he told you "you're doing it wrong". Hopefully someone that owns a firearm has at least the ability to read the numbers on the slide/barrel and compare those to the numbers on the box. You don't even have to be able to read, just compare the pictographs.

The above reply is not in any sort of way a question of your aptitude, nor is it directed at you personally. It's just a response to your question, and I happen to have read it at a point in the day that has me annoyed with stupid people.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:31 am 
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I would wait till another and better manufacturer started producing models. I could not make myself buy a Rock Island.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:23 pm 
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WOW, I was convinced the Rock Island gun was vaporware. It's neat to see that its actually out ...

That said, the two guns are still very different despite the similar ballistics of their cartridges.

The FsN is much lighter weight, is designed to use standard ogive .224 bullets (which the TCM does not appear to be loaded with = potential seating depth issues for re loaders), FSN holds 2 more rounds, FsN mags are more common, FsN ammo is already established on the market, and dies for 5.7 have already been available for some time.

MECHANICALLY the new RIA may be a viable alternative for those who prefer antique styled guns, but I don't see how it will ever be a viable option logistically.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:02 pm 
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I wonder if a 22/22 TCM revolver would be possible in the same vein as the 22/22mag ones already out there.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:36 pm 
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ultra magnus wrote:
I wonder if a 22/22 TCM revolver would be possible in the same vein as the 22/22mag ones already out there.



I believe bottle-necked cartridges do not work well in a revolver. So no.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:22 am 
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gunsandrockets wrote:
AKFTW wrote:
MacAttack wrote:
How about a full auto M-11? just switch out the barrels and use the same 30 round 9mm mags.

Every 9mm carbine or pistol could be converted to this round very simply. And it would use a standard .22/.223/5.56 suppressor.


See THIS is where I think this round has potential over 5.7, 4.6, and other small pistol "PDW" calibers before it. If they can make a drop-in conversion barrel for 9mm Glocks for around $100 (lone wolf, are you listening?), this round could really gain a following. The fact that you can convert basically any 9mm to this round (in theory) makes it a serious contender IMO.


This.

But such a conversion seems like such an obvious boon, I wondered why no one has tried it before? Then it occurred to me, that the interchangeability could also be the achilles heel of the whole enterprise. Couldn't the .22 TCM be accidentally fired in a 9mm firearm?

KABOOM!

Of course a person would have to be an idiot to load such an obviously different cartridge as the .22 TCM into a 9mm firearm. But that's what many product liability lawsuits are made from. Attempts to idiot-proof the world.



Actually if you look at the two rounds the TCM is shorter than the 9mm and will more than likely slip into the chamber farther than a 9mm would. Thus the firing pin might just not be able to reach it and fire it.
And even if it fired the TCM will just dribble out the end of the barrel and never produce enough back pressure to cycle the next round. The bullet isn't big anough to even touch the sides of the barrel. thus all the gasses would just go around it.
Putting a 9mm into the TCM barrel might be the big problem. If and thats a BIG if you got it to actually go in far enough to line the back of the round up with the bolt face a FA bolt might possibly just might hit the firing pin and set it off.
Now that would cause a kaboom.
Semi auto guns can't do this since the bolt must be ALL the way forward for the hammer to reach the firing pin or the striker to be cocked.

But then again the same chance would have happened in any 40/357sig gun. And I haven't heard of that problem yet.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:56 am 
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Doesn't look like you could fit a 9mm in a 22TCM chamber to me. A TCM cartridge in a 9 chamber might be able to fire, but shouldn't be dangerous to anyone

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:43 pm 
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Officially grilled the guys at Armscor/RIA today at SHOT:

So I track down the booth and it's a bunch of bored looking 20 somethings from the Philipines, who kept telling me, over and over again, "you're so technical, you're so technical" when I asked about basic ballistics data. Then they called out the head knowledge person, who must have been 4' across, who quoted the energy to me as '3900 ft/bs,"- sticking to that figure even after I told him that would be more that a 30.06. :roll:

After about 10 minutes of shocking lack of knowledge about their flagship product I was able to get this info:

40 gr, Semi Jacketed Hollow Point made of soft lead, identical to the Armscor .22 mag projectile.

2100 fps, 390 ft/lbs of energy. (which is pretty damn good, as hot as the hottest 40gr for the 5.7)

They told me they haven't tested it in gel, but that it performs very similarly to a .22mag from a rifle, fragmenting almost entirely within the first 6". Hence its devastating performance against the evil watermelons.

They told me, but could not confirm, that the FMJ version penetrates armor, but they could not import it "due to the ATF."

They believe a V-Max loading is in the works- they said 45gr but their knowledge was sketchy at best.

So, basically, the .22TCM in it's current loading outperforms the 5.7 in velocity, but fails miserably in terms of ballistics wounding characteristics and armor penetration. To quote the countless ignorant 5.7 trolls out there, "that shits just like a .22 mag." At least for now, 5.7x28 > .22TCM.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:40 am 
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spyderco monkey wrote:
Officially grilled the guys at Armscor/RIA today at SHOT:


So, basically, the .22TCM in it's current loading outperforms the 5.7 in velocity, but fails miserably in terms of ballistics wounding characteristics and armor penetration. To quote the countless ignorant 5.7 trolls out there, "that shits just like a .22 mag." At least for now, 5.7x28 > .22TCM.



I was thinking it would be comparable to the HK 4.6x30.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:11 am 
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I wonder what the TCM would do at distance? Like 100,200, and 300 meters?

Depending on twist rate it should do pretty well.


Someone with a better ballistics computer than my head should be able to give a pretty good guess. I was going to guess a 1in10 twist rate for starters.




As for the 5.7, how does that baby stack up at range? And please no videos. u tub blows monkey stuff. I have always hated those poor excuses for video.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:37 pm 
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As soon as someone (preferably Lone Wolf) sells a conversion barrel for a Glock, I'll be on it, *especially* if they have a V-Max loading. That could be REAL competition for a Five-seveN.

Heck, if it catches on and Elite or someone like that starts making ammo for it, well, zing.

But bullet construction is everything, and right now, that seems awfully lacking.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:32 pm 
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tarafore wrote:
As soon as someone (preferably Lone Wolf) sells a conversion barrel for a Glock, I'll be on it, *especially* if they have a V-Max loading. That could be REAL competition for a Five-seveN.

Heck, if it catches on and Elite or someone like that starts making ammo for it, well, zing.

But bullet construction is everything, and right now, that seems awfully lacking.


Hornady already has a 22mag Vmax I'd assume that bullet could be used in the TCM loadings.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:49 pm 
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ultra magnus wrote:
tarafore wrote:
As soon as someone (preferably Lone Wolf) sells a conversion barrel for a Glock, I'll be on it, *especially* if they have a V-Max loading. That could be REAL competition for a Five-seveN.

Heck, if it catches on and Elite or someone like that starts making ammo for it, well, zing.

But bullet construction is everything, and right now, that seems awfully lacking.


Hornady already has a 22mag Vmax I'd assume that bullet could be used in the TCM loadings.


Assumes = kabooms :?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:48 am 
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Any 5.7x28 vs .22 TCM comparison is going to resemble most 5.56x45 vs 5.7x28 debates, or 7.62x51mm vs 5.56x45, or 30.06 vs 7.62x51mm;

Aside from the most obvious and readily observable fact that each of these cartridges have very different lengths and ballistic characteristics, the older, more powerful, more established cartridge that has been developed to greater performance levels over time and has created a body of testing evidence since it's introduction will always be the favorite in any contention of it superiority.

The newer, less powerful, less established cartridge that has barely proven itself worthy of a market niche (that it clings to life for) and is youngest in it's development with the more unexplored territory of peak performance and ballistic potential and that possesses a mere fraction of the research and testing of the counterpart it is compared with is going to get the tar and feathers.


IMO .22 TCM is closer to the Chinese 5.8x21 DAP (or maybe the failed .224 Boz) than it is to 5.7x28 or 4.6x30.
In the images below the .22 TCM appears to be amazingly close to the 5.8x21 in casing dimension (use the 9x19mm cartridge in each image as the base visual comparison)

(Left to Right: 7.62x25mm Tokarev, 5.8x21 DAP, 9x19mm)
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(.223, .22 TCM, 9x19mm)
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5.8x21mm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.8%C3%9721mm_DAP92

I'd much rather compare apples to other, similarly shaped apples than try to compare apples to oranges.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:30 am 
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Einherjrar wrote:
Any 5.7x28 vs .22 TCM comparison is going to resemble most 5.56x45 vs 5.7x28 debates, or 7.62x51mm vs 5.56x45, or 30.06 vs 7.62x51mm;

Aside from the most obvious and readily observable fact that each of these cartridges have very different lengths and ballistic characteristics, the older, more powerful, more established cartridge that has been developed to greater performance levels over time and has created a body of testing evidence since it's introduction will always be the favorite in any contention of it superiority.

The newer, less powerful, less established cartridge that has barely proven itself worthy of a market niche (that it clings to life for) and is youngest in it's development with the more unexplored territory of peak performance and ballistic potential and that possesses a mere fraction of the research and testing of the counterpart it is compared with is going to get the tar and feathers.


IMO .22 TCM is closer to the Chinese 5.8x21 DAP (or maybe the failed .224 Boz) than it is to 5.7x28 or 4.6x30.
In the images below the .22 TCM appears to be amazingly close to the 5.8x21 in casing dimension (use the 9x19mm cartridge in each image as the base visual comparison)

(Left to Right: 7.62x25mm Tokarev, 5.8x21 DAP, 9x19mm)
Image

(.223, .22 TCM, 9x19mm)
Image

5.8x21mm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.8%C3%9721mm_DAP92

I'd much rather compare apples to other, similarly shaped apples than try to compare apples to oranges.


The cartridge has plenty of power, and it's not because it's the new guy- it just has an obviously underperforming projectile at the moment, which neuters it's potential.

Aesthetically it is sImilar to the 5.8, but it is much faster and more powerful- its equivalent to the Protector loading from elite for 5.7. If it had a V-max or tumbling bullet it would be awesome.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:00 am 
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spyderco monkey wrote:
Einherjrar wrote:
lot of blah.


The cartridge has plenty of power, and it's not because it's the new guy- it just has an obviously underperforming projectile at the moment, which neuters it's potential.


I'm inclined to believe one of the reasons it has such an underperforming projectile is because it's the new guy.
Bullet design for 5.56 and 5.7 took years of gradual development to refine them to their respective plateaus.

I think it's hard to say right now how much potential .22 TCM might actually have, whether that's good or bad.

spyderco monkey wrote:
Aesthetically it is sImilar to the 5.8, but it is much faster and more powerful- its equivalent to the Protector loading from elite for 5.7. If it had a V-max or tumbling bullet it would be awesome.


Is it actually faster with similar weight projectiles? If so I'm surprised.

I ask because 5.7 has quite a bit of cartridge length over the .22 TCM.
I expected .22 TCM to be less pressure and slightly slower moving.

Edited; Speling.

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Last edited by Einher on Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:10 pm 
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The 5.8 Dap is putting a 45gr at 1550 fps, for 250ft/lbs, 500fps and 140ft/lbs behind the TCM and Protector loading by Elite, which is the hottest 40gr loading for 5.7.

5.7 does 50,000psi (it truly is a rifle round in a handgun). I have no idea about the TCM, but considering a .357 sig is I the 40,000 range I expect it's also way up there.

The projectile choice seems to be about money and politics rather than lack of long term design. Namely, Armscor has a shitload of this 40gr SJHP on hand from its production of .22magnum, so this is the most cost effective projectile for them. Furthermore, due to its unjacketed tip and soft led construction, it has no hope of penetrating a vest, thereby assuring its importation into the US.

Basically, it's a neutered cartridge in the same way as the FN civilian loadings for 5.7 are. The fundemental difference here is that the ss195 and ss197 are excellent projectiles at reduced velocities, while the TCM is a reduced projectile at excellent velocity.

What happens next will be very interesting, as virtually any other projectile at 2100fpa will penetrate IIIa, so combined with the low threshold for entry (works in any 9mm) this cartridge may provoke a showdown that so far the 5.7 has managed to avoid.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:07 am 
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spyderco monkey wrote:
What happens next will be very interesting, as virtually any other projectile at 2100fpa will penetrate IIIa, so combined with the low threshold for entry (works in any 9mm) this cartridge may provoke a showdown that so far the 5.7 has managed to avoid.


I am not ashamed to admit that the low threshold for entry is one of the reasons I find the concept of .22 TCM attractive.
I am unabashedly a multi-caliber whore, and a possible 9mm to .22 TCM conversion is more attractive to me than an entirely new gun; Especially if it's available for either Glock or EAA Witness, (YMMV).

.357 SIG is essentially a bottleneck .40 S&W (though sources claim the development of these cartridges are independent of one another), and .400 Corbon is essentially a bottleneck .45 ACP. I've been waiting for a decent 9mm bottleneck (even though it technically uses modified .223 casing dimensions) to make a splash for some years now, and .22 TCM could either be that smash hit or just the latest of a long line of failures.

At the very least, I hope .22 TCM is compatible with .223 bullets; IMO the chinese approach of designing their national military assault rifles and pistol cartridges in the same bore dimension has been a dynamic move (even if they are different cartridge lengths; 5.8x21 pistol and 5.8x42 rifle).

As far as any showdowns, I hope it centers more around ballistic competition against existing cartridges than legislative action.
As surprised as I am to say it, I actually hope .22 TCM takes off and succeeds where other attempts have failed.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:47 pm 
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Einherjrar wrote:
I am unabashedly a multi-caliber whore, and a possible 9mm to .22 TCM conversion is more attractive to me than an entirely new gun; Especially if it's available for either Glock or EAA Witness, (YMMV).


At the very least, I hope .22 TCM is compatible with .223 bullets; IMO the chinese approach of designing their national military assault rifles and pistol cartridges in the same bore dimension has been a dynamic move (even if they are different cartridge lengths; 5.8x21 pistol and 5.8x42 rifle).

As far as any showdowns, I hope it centers more around ballistic competition against existing cartridges than legislative action.
As surprised as I am to say it, I actually hope .22 TCM takes off and succeeds where other attempts have failed.


Me too man, honestly my shit talking about the projectile aside, I'm very excited about the .22 TCM cartridge itself, as I love caliber conversions and hyper-velocity anything in a pistol.

If this thing is compatible with .223 rifle bullets it will be win. My biggest concern is that to be able to work in 9mm firearms it requires a "truncated projectile" as previously discussed, forcing it to use weird .22 mag projectiles instead of high performance rifle bullets.

But no one is hopping I'm wrong about that more than me.

I think the Chinese were def ahead of the curve is adopting a universal projectile caliber, which makes sense for sooooo many logistical reasons, supressor commonality being just one of many.

I'm just surprised they went with such a week round for the DAP. 1575fps is damn slow for a 45gr loading- the 7.62x25 Tok it replaced does almost the same velocity with a round twice the weight, and the 5.7 are both 100ft/lb beyond it as well. So while it can still penetrate armor, it sounds like it's the weakest of all the new PDW calibers, which makes no sense since it was developed after the 5.7, 4.6, .224 BOZ, etc.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:59 pm 
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If we can see (at least) ProtecTOR ballistics out of this I'll be all over it.

I've always said the FiveseveN is, in my humble opinion, one of the best handguns available. However, I'll drop it with the quickness if something else comes out that outperforms it. A Glock 17 that can be easily converted to .22 tcm, is as accurate as a FiveseveN, performs like S4M in ballistics gel, and can defeat body armor, definitely has my interests. Although, I don't know that this will be able to perform the aforementioned tasks. I hope it does (eventually).

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:48 pm 
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Honestly without some nifty FMJ bullets to improve the dismal stated penetration figures this stuff won't be good for anything more than paper or squirrels, which a .22LR does just fine.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:46 pm 
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But the rounds that penetrate in the 5.7 are illegal.


You may be surprised to learn that they are not! The Military / LEO duty ammo is restricted voluntarily by FN. If you find some for purcase, there is nothing at all illegal about buying it, owning it, and even shooting it on the federal level. Provided your state has no individual restrictions, you are good to go.

In addition, Standard 55gr .224" FMJ projectiles (such as those pulled from 5.56 NATO M193 ball) are legal as well, and either can be hand loaded into the 5.7 or purchased as loaded ammunition from Elite ammunition.

http://www.eliteammunition.net/catalog/item/7385614/7701253.htm

If you are talking about penetrating soft armor, then their special run 'S4M' duty ammo will do so, according to various YouTube tests.
http://www.eliteammunition.net/specialruns4.html

As for the TCM round:

I think its Achilles heel is the fat rimfire bullet it uses. This is intentional - The cartridge would simply not fit into a 9mm size frame if they used standard .224 rifle bullets, and doing so is one of its main selling points. Guess what? The same bullets that allow it to be swaped for a 9mm barrel will forever keep it from being a serious cartridge. The TCM will never be able to match the 5.7 on anything other than paper figures unless they find a way to load a vastly improved bullet into that case.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:28 am 
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You can't load 5.7 rounds with normal 5.56 bullets, they are too heavy. The 5.7 doesn't have enough powder to remove the bullet from the casing most of the time.


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