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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:38 am 
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Alright time for a versus thread. Now that Rock Island has released their .22 TCM 1911 we can do a comparison between that and the five-seven.

Price: FN: ~$1000 RIA: ~$575

ammo- $0.40/rnd on average for both factory loads

Capacity: 20 rounds for the five seven, 18 for the RIA.

Velocity: ~1700-2100 fps using 40 grain for both.

weight: FN1.3 lbs unloaded, RIA 2.375lbs

variables:

The FN Five seven had a long R&D phase from a proven industry leader which has massive military contracts throughout the world where the pistol has been tested and is pretty much dead nuts reliable at this point. The ammo is also made a foothold with other weapon systems, so future production is pretty much assured.

The RIA may be the new kid on the block, but the designers were wise enough to include a 9x19 barrel and spring with the gun making it very easy to swap between a more prevalent caliber. The one real downside being that the gun is heavier than the FN and that double stack 1911s have a checkered history.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:43 am 
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Once they make a drop in conversion barrel for 9mm Glocks, THEN we can start this thread 8-)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:04 am 
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Well I am admittedly biased toward anything in the 1911 platform, but my feeling is that extra weight isn't necessarily a bad thing especially in terms of muzzle rise from such a fast little load. Only time will tell.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:08 am 
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In looking, I can finds A source for ammo. No ads for dies as yet.

Rock Island may be getting ahead of the market.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:30 am 
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AKFTW wrote:
Once they make a drop in conversion barrel for 9mm Glocks, THEN we can start this thread 8-)


Yes, I completely agree, a .22TCM glock would be the cat's meow.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:35 am 
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gelgoog wrote:
AKFTW wrote:
Once they make a drop in conversion barrel for 9mm Glocks, THEN we can start this thread 8-)


Yes, I completely agree, a .22TCM glock would be the cat's meow.


That would be a great reason to get a Glock 17L!

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:01 am 
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Well, the $425 price difference is a frakton of ammo for a pistol at $.40 a round, so that's a definite bonus for the RIA. Will it use an existing 9mm double stack mag (say from one of the previous 9mm 1911s out there) because cheaper mags would be a bonus too.

I can't find anything, so I'll ask. Is .22 TCM just the American answer to the 5.7? Where can I get more info? Or is this the first firearm to come out in .22 TCM, period?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:39 am 
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Doc Torr wrote:
Well, the $425 price difference is a frakton of ammo for a pistol at $.40 a round, so that's a definite bonus for the RIA. Will it use an existing 9mm double stack mag (say from one of the previous 9mm 1911s out there) because cheaper mags would be a bonus too.

I can't find anything, so I'll ask. Is .22 TCM just the American answer to the 5.7? Where can I get more info? Or is this the first firearm to come out in .22 TCM, period?


Far as I know, .22 TCM is Rock Islands baby. It was announced sometime last year IIRC and it fell off the radar for me while I was waiting to hear if it ever made it to market.
I know it's supposed to compete in some of the same fields of use as the 5.7, but AFAIK it is not marketed as directly competing with 5.7; Just as 5.7 competes in some of the same fields of use as 5.56, but is not directly competing with it.

I'm actually fairly interested in .22 TCM; especially since it could potentially be used in damn near any existing 9mm handgun on the market with a barrel and possibly a spring change.

Another selling point would be if .22 TCM can use standard .38 super or 9mm magazines.
That means Glocks, 1911's, EAA Witness, Sig, etc. if it eventually catches on, since 5.7 is too long for any Glock, 1911, Sig or EAA Witness frame I've ever seen. .22 TCM is roughly the same dimensions of a 9x19mm; though I couldn't say for certain whether they would require different magazines. In most cases I'd doubt it.

Right now price of ammo by the bulk and ballistic performance comparisons are all I'm really waiting for to decide if I actually want one; and even then I probably won't want it until the kinks have been worked out (predict a year or two at best, probably longer).

If the ammo isn't affordable, if it can't perform well enough, or there isn't enough general public interest, it may simply become the latest addition to the list of history's forgotten calibers.

If not; I at least hope to see some performance comparisons vs other bottleneck pistol cartridges such as .400 Corbon, .357 Sig, 7.62x25mm Tokarev, and 5.7x28mm.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:26 am 
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Sweet. The temptation of a 9mm/.22 TCM G17L might be enough to get me into the supercartridge game.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:48 am 
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I hope Lone Wolf or somebody will make a Glock BBL. But knowing my luck, they want!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:01 pm 
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If the ammo becomes available and lone wolf makes a brl, I'm in. Lee dies as well please.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:01 pm 
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Einherjrar wrote:
Doc Torr wrote:
Well, the $425 price difference is a frakton of ammo for a pistol at $.40 a round, so that's a definite bonus for the RIA. Will it use an existing 9mm double stack mag (say from one of the previous 9mm 1911s out there) because cheaper mags would be a bonus too.

I can't find anything, so I'll ask. Is .22 TCM just the American answer to the 5.7? Where can I get more info? Or is this the first firearm to come out in .22 TCM, period?


Far as I know, .22 TCM is Rock Islands baby. It was announced sometime last year IIRC and it fell off the radar for me while I was waiting to hear if it ever made it to market.
I know it's supposed to compete in some of the same fields of use as the 5.7, but AFAIK it is not marketed as directly competing with 5.7; Just as 5.7 competes in some of the same fields of use as 5.56, but is not directly competing with it.

I'm actually fairly interested in .22 TCM; especially since it could potentially be used in damn near any existing 9mm handgun on the market with a barrel and possibly a spring change.

Another selling point would be if .22 TCM can use standard .38 super or 9mm magazines.
That means Glocks, 1911's, EAA Witness, Sig, etc. if it eventually catches on, since 5.7 is too long for any Glock, 1911, Sig or EAA Witness frame I've ever seen. .22 TCM is roughly the same dimensions of a 9x19mm; though I couldn't say for certain whether they would require different magazines. In most cases I'd doubt it.

Right now price of ammo by the bulk and ballistic performance comparisons are all I'm really waiting for to decide if I actually want one; and even then I probably won't want it until the kinks have been worked out (predict a year or two at best, probably longer).

If the ammo isn't affordable, if it can't perform well enough, or there isn't enough general public interest, it may simply become the latest addition to the list of history's forgotten calibers.

If not; I at least hope to see some performance comparisons vs other bottleneck pistol cartridges such as .400 Corbon, .357 Sig, 7.62x25mm Tokarev, and 5.7x28mm.


Found this on another forum

Quote:
According to the recent article in the "American Handgunner", .22 TCM Micro-Mag ammo is $20 box of 50, $350 per case of 1,000. Custom reloading is available for $12.50 a box (customer brass).


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:22 pm 
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Doc Torr wrote:
Will it use an existing 9mm double stack mag (say from one of the previous 9mm 1911s out there) because cheaper mags would be a bonus too.


It sounds like they use mecgar P18 mags with modified feed lips :?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:32 pm 
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I would probably go for the .22 TCM( if they manufactured the ammo in Norway, it wouuld be fantastic for me)


Main reasons for .22 TCM over FN 5.7

-More weight = more stability(i believe, there is a fine line between too light and too heavy IMHO)
-almost half the price for the gun itself = you can almost buy 2 .22 TCM's for the price of one FN 5.7
-9mm conversion kit= pretty self-explanatory


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:20 pm 
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lolinski wrote:
I would probably go for the .22 TCM( if they manufactured the ammo in Norway, it wouuld be fantastic for me)


Main reasons for .22 TCM over FN 5.7

-More weight = more stability(i believe, there is a fine line between too light and too heavy IMHO)
-almost half the price for the gun itself = you can almost buy 2 .22 TCM's for the price of one FN 5.7
-9mm conversion kit= pretty self-explanatory


Except that right now it's a single manufacturer, in a 1911 double-stack, possibly with modified magazines. It seems as though the newcomer has a lot to prove if it's gonna stack against the FN.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:53 pm 
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They ammo uses the very same magazines as a 9mm.

The RIA only comes with the 9mm mags.

No modified feed lips or anything needed. Just change the barrel and your good to go. Just like a .357sig uses 40 mags.



I just ordered a box of ammo in order to get the exact sizes to have a barrel cut for my EAA. Hopefully the final price is reasonable.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:49 pm 
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MacAttack wrote:
They ammo uses the very same magazines as a 9mm.

The RIA only comes with the 9mm mags.

No modified feed lips or anything needed. Just change the barrel and your good to go. Just like a .357sig uses 40 mags.



Citation needed on the mags. I'm ready to believe, but I'd like to find that in ink somewhere.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:42 pm 
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The round was originally designed by Frede Craig As the .22 Micro-mag. http://atomitronx.com/products.html

He then got together with Armscorp. And the name changed to the .22TCM. The president of Armcorp is named Tuason. So TCM means Tuason Craig Micromag.



As for printed evidence of the magazine read here. http://www.armscor.com.ph/img/AmericanHandgunnerTCM.pdf .They even show a picture.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:07 pm 
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MacAttack wrote:
The round was originally designed by Frede Craig As the .22 Micro-mag. http://atomitronx.com/products.html

He then got together with Armscorp. And the name changed to the .22TCM. The president of Armcorp is named Tuason. So TCM means Tuason Craig Micromag.



As for printed evidence of the magazine read here. http://www.armscor.com.ph/img/AmericanHandgunnerTCM.pdf .They even show a picture.


Thanks. Exactly what I was looking for.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:20 pm 
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Fascinating!

Of course this new RIA handgun is a no-go in California. First off the magazine is prohibited because the capacity is greater than 10 rounds. Secondly I doubt RIA would ever bother to have the handgun added to the California Roster of Handguns Approved for Sale, since the process is so expensive and absurdly cumbersome.

Maybe RIA would sell a conversion kit for one of the 9mm or .38 Super handguns RIA already sells in California? Maybe a Bar-Sto 1911 barrel in .22 TCM might become available?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:38 pm 
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Get me a Glock barrel and ammo... I can't find a definite source online yet. The places I've checked had "reasonably" prices, but no stock.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:39 pm 
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It seems to me that a pistol needs to be able to do one of two things:

1. Quickly stop an assailant

2. Be fun and cheap to shoot.


This looks like it accomplishes neither. The ammo is expensive, and an unjacketed lead .22 slug doesnt look like it's going to be very useful in a defensive pistol, while the shitty ballistic coefficient means its going to suck ass at extended ranges.


I love how one of those links above stated that the main design goal was to come up with an american alternative to 5.7 using "America's one true pistol design". I laughed hard at that, until I remembered that the Hi-Power influenced pistol designs for the next 60 years while precisely no one used the pivot link design ever again in anything that wasn't a 1911. And the design gets 5 demerits for shouting AMERICA and then using a Philippine gun company.

I guess I'll wait until this clown releases 'america's one true rifle design' in .22 TCM. I expect it to be a serbian copy of a Garand.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:56 pm 
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I shot the Rock Island Armory .22 TCM at SHOT Show last year. It was incredible. YouTube "Rock Island .22 TCM" for a video I shot with Fred Craig talking about the round he designed and the gun.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:00 pm 
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The .22 Reed Express
30 gr bullet 2782 FPS
35 gr bullet 2721 FPS
50 gr bullet 2401 FPS
Data from "Cartridges of the World"
The 50 gr loading beats the snot out of the 5.7 in energy delivered.

Basically a necked down 7.62x25, barrels available for the CZ-52

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