Bear and feral pigs whilst running

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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by procyon » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:16 am

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:Do lighter TMJ/FMJTC bullets fail to penetrate deeply enough? Even 115gr WWB runs through two feet of ballistic gel. 230gr WWB (.45ACP) goes a bit further. Is this not sufficient, compared to a hard cast WC or SWC?
My only issue with the 'hard cast WC or SWC' would be if your are using these in guns pushing them at 1000+ fps. If you practice much, that is just a lot of lead to clean out of the barrel. Even with good lube, gas checks, and hard alloy - you are going to leave lead.
Which isn't the end of the world, but it is a pain.

I would put in a vote for a .357 wheel gun. The only hogs I have run into gave me nowhere near enough time to even empty my S&W's six shots, let alone dump a larger mag.

If you run hard SWC's, you should have plenty of penetration. Probably way more than enough for what we are discussing. Heck, my .38 Spl with 158 gn LSWC's has overpenetrated most critters I have shot with it. To include a calf that had been crippled up by coyotes. Both shots penetrated a 400# calf's front shoulder and came out the far side of the rib cage. This was with a 4" bbl and rounds running around 900 fps at a range of about 10'.

I have little experience with bear. But I can't see something on the lines of a .357 with a decent load not being adequate for a 300# animal if a long gun isn't an option. I'd personally go with a JSP. But that's just me.
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Zimmy » Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:52 am

procyon wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:Do lighter TMJ/FMJTC bullets fail to penetrate deeply enough? Even 115gr WWB runs through two feet of ballistic gel. 230gr WWB (.45ACP) goes a bit further. Is this not sufficient, compared to a hard cast WC or SWC?
(snip)The only hogs I have run into gave me nowhere near enough time to even empty my S&W's six shots, let alone dump a larger mag.(snip)
If the game is running away, yes. The thing that popped in my mind was a vision of a bear or multiple hogs having the shooter on the ground. :shock:

Even a Hollywood pistol wouldn't have enough ammo for that scenario to feel good. And you don't have to reload them :wink:
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by buck85 » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:05 pm

olbaid_dratsab wrote:Charter arms makes their bulldog in a 4in barrel. I think you can find used ones in a 3in barrel. I only plan for two legged predators so I'm not up to speed on .44splecial performance, but a 5 shot in that platform seems to be a nice ratio of size and umph.
If I felt the need, this is what I would carry.Really though , bear spray!!!It would be light to carry,less complicated(wheres the gun, wheres the ......) and used as a legal deterrent for two leg critters as well.
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:49 pm

buck85 wrote:
olbaid_dratsab wrote:Charter arms makes their bulldog in a 4in barrel. I think you can find used ones in a 3in barrel. I only plan for two legged predators so I'm not up to speed on .44splecial performance, but a 5 shot in that platform seems to be a nice ratio of size and umph.
If I felt the need, this is what I would carry.Really though , bear spray!!!It would be light to carry,less complicated(wheres the gun, wheres the ......) and used as a legal deterrent for two leg critters as well.
Where's the gun? In the HPG kit bag. Seriously how does someone carry a gun and not know where it is at all times?

Bear spray is on the list. Currently deciding between a smaller, shorter range canister or the campus security model for maximum discontent. I'd like to find a happy medium between the two that allows for reasonably quick access, preferably left-handed.

.44 Special from a 4" is basically an obtuse .45ACP. Not a huge fan of Charter either. I think personally I'm settled on throwing in the Sig barrel and a mag of BB lead-free. I should be seeing Otherdude in the next couple weeks for a legit range day, but I have a feeling he'll either end up with a G30S or a G30SF with a 9x23 conversion barrel. Or an HK. Dude drives a BMW, so HK money is a possibility.
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by raptor » Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:51 pm

If goes for a Glock 30, just a heads up I had a hell of a time finding a decent holster in stock for my Glock 30sf.I finally settled for this one which actually works great and stays snug on my hip. But obviously you need to wear a belt to use it.

http://www.bianchi-intl.com/black-widow-holster-2

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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by raptor » Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:51 pm

Edited due to dreaded double post.
Last edited by raptor on Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Sworbeyegib » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:22 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
.44 Special from a 4" is basically an obtuse .45ACP. Not a huge fan of Charter either. I think personally I'm settled on throwing in the Sig barrel and a mag of BB lead-free. I should be seeing Otherdude in the next couple weeks for a legit range day, but I have a feeling he'll either end up with a G30S or a G30SF with a 9x23 conversion barrel. Or an HK. Dude drives a BMW, so HK money is a possibility.
I would feel comfortable with any of those.

Any reason why he would go with a 9x23 conversion instead of a 10mm conversion? 10mm would be a bit more mainstream. I know some people have problems when using just a conversion barrel, but he could probably buy a G30 and a complete 10mm upper assembly for the price of an HK.
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:26 am

Sworbeyegib wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
.44 Special from a 4" is basically an obtuse .45ACP. Not a huge fan of Charter either. I think personally I'm settled on throwing in the Sig barrel and a mag of BB lead-free. I should be seeing Otherdude in the next couple weeks for a legit range day, but I have a feeling he'll either end up with a G30S or a G30SF with a 9x23 conversion barrel. Or an HK. Dude drives a BMW, so HK money is a possibility.
I would feel comfortable with any of those.

Any reason why he would go with a 9x23 conversion instead of a 10mm conversion? 10mm would be a bit more mainstream. I know some people have problems when using just a conversion barrel, but he could probably buy a G30 and a complete 10mm upper assembly for the price of an HK.
Dunno. Maybe he knows someone else who stocks or loads it. Or he found the dark part of the internet where wildcats are overhyped.
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Nick Adams » Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:25 pm

I think any real danger from a Bear or wild hogs would be minimal, probably a bigger danger of dropping your gun and shooting yourself with it.
If I thought I had a real need for protection from these things I believe I would carry my old S&W 4 inch Model 29 .44 Mag. , effective, dependable and not that bad to carry

To be honest though if I thought I needed to carry a gun to protect myself from Bears, Hogs etc. where I was jogging I think I would look into getting a treadmill

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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Caenus » Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:43 pm

Nick Adams wrote:
...snip...

To be honest though if I thought I needed to carry a gun to protect myself from Bears, Hogs etc. where I was jogging I think I would look into getting a treadmill
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by maine1 » Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:50 pm

Up here, its pill/meth heads, the mountain lions that "do NOT exist in maine" and possibly dump bears way down the line.

I run the Glock 20, EDC and for everything. The recoil even with hot loads is pretty mild ( there are those that will BS you and tell you its tough to handle.) The Glock and the 10mm have a symbiotic relationship and it soaks up the recoil. If you reload, you have the only real downside of the 10mm beat.

If we accept the premise that no handgun is really "adequate" for bears, then you can use just about anything you are dialed in with. This is the real issue, IME, as you need a weapon you can perform well with under stress regardless of caliber.

Truthfully, i have considered going back to my old 45 glock, as losing brass is less a concern, as i have far more 45 brass. Yet, when i call on the 10mm to get the job done..it comes through. The 45 did not always, particularly on larger animals. But this is also largely due to placement. !0mm does have an advantage over the 45 in SD and penetration. More than I thought the slight dimensional difernece would give until i compared them head to head.

Sounds like you hunt, anyway, so you are familar with where vital organsd lie in said animals, but put abit of extra study in and it will behoove you.

That flatshooting 10mm is very handy.

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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by DarkAxel » Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:01 pm

When I go out hunting I carry a S&W model 27 wheelgun loaded with Remington 158gr semiwadcutters for defense against bears and two-legged snakes.
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by LASwampRat » Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:16 am

I personally have not taken a bear. My father did. It was a Colorado black bear in the 2-300lb range. He went out the day before and scouted some trails. He then went out early the next morning like. 430-5 he drove to the spot off the road he found and then got out his truck to start geting ready to go to the woods.

He walked about ten paces from the truck which had his rifle a scoped 30/30 he planed to hunt with. His back up was a old Rugger black hawk with a 6". He had run of the mill hand cast lead bullets nothing fancy and only the last two where holo point. Out of the 6.

I wish I had pictures of the actually hide. As my dad took a leak the bear walked up the path between the truck/his rifle and him. He zipped up turned around and there was the bear....

Less than 15 feet. First two shots straight in the face. Later we learned after taxidermy the thoes two rounds hit the skull plate slid under the skin and put the back causing only flesh wounds. (These were loads he had hand gun hunted hog and dear with. Second two he put in the chest the last two one hit the right shoulder totally removing it destroyed the rug my dad was pissed the second hollow point he put into the chest when it stood up on two legs.

He actually went to climb a tree and reload when two other hunters with rifles came up and finished the job...

Hogs yeah 45, 40. Even 9mm (from a pistol carbine)... Iv taken hog before. Know where to shoot them sure. A bear bowed up on adrenalin... Lol if it's not a 44mag or better I'll be thinking of escape plan Bravo..

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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by gun toting monkeyboy » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:20 pm

dallas wrote:
gun toting monkeyboy wrote: You can load the first chamber up with a shot load, and then follow up with whatever heavy bullet amuses you. That will deal with snakes, wild dogs, meth heads, and any larger critters you are likely to deal with, in a package that you can load up and not think about.

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Why would you shot a snake?

I used a 44mag in my younger days for hog. Now I have a 10mm also.
I don't normally have an issue with snakes. We normally kill about a half dozen Southern Pacifics on our property during any given year. We have yet to see any Mohave Greens. And yes, I do indeed kill the aggressive species of rattlers, as we have had both dogs and horses bitten by them. Other than those two kinds, I am much more likely to try to catch anything we have around here. And we tend to use a shovel to dispatch the problem snakes rather than a shot shell. But in areas of the country where you have more aggressive snakes, like copperheads and water moccasins, a shot shell in the first chamber of a revolver makes decent sense. Not everybody is comfortable with snakes. You have to remember that.

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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by dallas » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:14 pm

gun toting monkeyboy wrote:
dallas wrote:
gun toting monkeyboy wrote: You can load the first chamber up with a shot load, and then follow up with whatever heavy bullet amuses you. That will deal with snakes, wild dogs, meth heads, and any larger critters you are likely to deal with, in a package that you can load up and not think about.

-Mb
Why would you shot a snake?

I used a 44mag in my younger days for hog. Now I have a 10mm also.
I don't normally have an issue with snakes. We normally kill about a half dozen Southern Pacifics on our property during any given year. We have yet to see any Mohave Greens. And yes, I do indeed kill the aggressive species of rattlers, as we have had both dogs and horses bitten by them. Other than those two kinds, I am much more likely to try to catch anything we have around here. And we tend to use a shovel to dispatch the problem snakes rather than a shot shell. But in areas of the country where you have more aggressive snakes, like copperheads and water moccasins, a shot shell in the first chamber of a revolver makes decent sense. Not everybody is comfortable with snakes. You have to remember that.

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I live in a rural area and live with copperheads and water moccasins. I just leave them alone.

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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Sworbeyegib » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:39 pm

Luckily, in my state we do not have snakes, bears or any predators. We have hogs though. Fortunately, we get very little reports of any sort of attack or charges from pigs here. They mind their own business for the most part, and the big ones don't get very big by hanging around known trails. A few months ago we had a report that a bunch of teenagers had to be air lifted from a valley after a pig supposedly chases them down into a ravine. Turns out though, the teens had seen a pig, and decided to follow it because they were inexperienced hikers who had never had a taste a nature before. They ended up getting themselves stuck in a gulch, not being able to climb themselves out.

We already have notoriously stringent laws concerning CCW. And the same for hiking with a trail gun. The only way to legally posses a gun on a trail is if it is a legal hunting area, it is a legal hunting day (weekends/holidays), the gun is of legal hunting caliber, and all of your current hunting permits are updated for the year.

However, a few years ago... we had a guy stab two people on a hiking trail. Both people survived, and the cops later found the assailant up a tree, yelling about the government, buck naked...
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Das Sheep » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:43 am

There are some pretty big frankenpigs in North Florida near the fl/ga line, especially out by lake city and the like where those massive state parks (state swamps) border farm land. There is also an 18 mile or so trail in the park by Lake City thats a nice weekend trail for friends in the winter with there is less water and bugs.

Anyway.

I personally carry a .357 magnum for bears and pigs, but this is mostly because my other pistols are, currently, only chambered in 9mm, .380 and a .22lr, none of which I would really want to count on for slaying super pigs.

Probably if I had to pick a pistol and could choose from things I don't have I would go with a 10mm pistol of some kind since the kids say 10mm is pretty close to .357 and I suppose that if I would rather have 15 rounds of 10mm out of a Glock 20 than 5 rounds of .357 out of an SP101 if I was actually in danger of being charged by some hogs. I don't really see Floridian black bears attacking unless you are giving some moms cubs a piggy back ride or something.

That said 10mm is stupidly expensive and rare, and I don't have a G20, so I will probably stick with my .357. People hunt with 10mm and .357 anywho, including bears and pigs, so both are stout enough to get the job done I suppose.

Also the Draco mini is technically a pistol. Just saying.

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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Mikeyboy » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:28 am

I have a similar problem in PA while hiking. Our Black Bears are a tad bigger than Florida. Coywolves and Feral Pigs are a possibility, and there are always bad 2 legged predators, especially with Heroin and Meth being an issue in some of the rural areas.

For both situations you are going to want a handgun that packs a punch and has a round that can penetrate deep especially with dealing with the hide, skull and shoulder blades of a black bear or a large pig. However you want a handgun that is easy to carry, not too big and does not weight too much, especially with running.

While I am no official gun expert, what I have found looking at gel test from people like http://www.brassfetcher.com and http://www.youtube.com/user/tnoutdoors9 is .357 out of a 2" snubbie is not real effective. It basically performs similar 9mm out of a compact pistol. That said "in theory" a hot 9mm FMJ (NATO or Buffalo Bore) or a short barrel .357 will do its part in punching a hole into a medium sized black bear skull at close range if your aim is good. You will get even better performance from a .357 with a 4" barrel, but then you are talking about a serious increase in size and weight. I don't see a feasible way to run or jog with a large steel .357 revolver.

The funny thing is that basic .40 fmj range ammo gives you slightly better performance then exotic +p 9mm fmj ammo with a slightly thicker diameter. 10mm will perform even better, but the pistol options are few, and 10mm has a kick, and ammo is expensive and hard to find.

.45 while it does hit hard and makes a big hole, does not penetrate well through bone and hide especially coming out of a short barrel pistol like the XDs. The velocity is just too slow and penetration is less than 9mm. Not to say it cannot be done with a .45 but the penetration test, and chronograph readings are very unimpressive. Also like mentioned earlier I flirted with the .44 special and .45colt but came to the same conclusion, that they will perform similar to a .45 acp, sometimes even less. Also since .44special and .45Colt, is harder to find, limited and more expensive that .45acp, you are just better of going with the .45acp. However if you go exotic buffalo bore ammo made specially for high penetration you can have a very efficient bear & boar stopper with a 45acp pistol or a .44 special / .45colt revolver

.44 mag would be effective, but again there is not too many guns in .44mag that would be easy to run with, and the ones that are would not be fun to shoot.

That said I think any of these rounds will dissuade a bear or boar attack. We had a few thread running about guns and animals on ZS. There are plenty of stories of Police officers and Civilians stopping all types of bears, bulls, cougars, lions, tigers and even elephants with a basic 9mm/.357/.40/.45 handgun. Most of the time its not pretty, but the animal attack is stopped. Emptying a 9mm pocket gun into an attacking animal and having it lay motionless with a fractured skull and shoulder blade as it bleeds to death is still better than having that same animal tear you apart because you left that .44 mag at home because it you got sick of carrying it.

For me a S&W Shield in .40 is the perfect hiking gun. Its relatively lightweight, compact, and .40 FMJ flatnose seem to be a cheap yet effective round to not only practice with but in a pinch hopefully stop a black bear attack. However I think any handgun 9mm or better, with the right ammo can do the job, but some can do the job better than others. So the only question will be what are you more comfortable with carrying (again we are taking running) and shooting regularly and accurately.

Also for the record I have ran into my fair share of wild animals. I never had a problem with rattlers, bears, coyotes, etc. Most of the time these scary creatures want no parts of you and will take off as soon as they see you. I actually get excited to see them and most of the time I carefully try to snap a picture. There is no need to go blasting away at them, but its good to have a firearm for that 1% chance encounter that turns ugly.

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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Tue Jul 01, 2014 6:19 pm

Das Sheep wrote:Also the Draco mini is technically a pistol. Just saying.
That'd be a fun one to run with. :P
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Mad Mike » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:31 pm

procyon wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:Do lighter TMJ/FMJTC bullets fail to penetrate deeply enough? Even 115gr WWB runs through two feet of ballistic gel. 230gr WWB (.45ACP) goes a bit further. Is this not sufficient, compared to a hard cast WC or SWC?
My only issue with the 'hard cast WC or SWC' would be if your are using these in guns pushing them at 1000+ fps. If you practice much, that is just a lot of lead to clean out of the barrel. Even with good lube, gas checks, and hard alloy - you are going to leave lead.
Which isn't the end of the world, but it is a pain.

I would put in a vote for a .357 wheel gun. The only hogs I have run into gave me nowhere near enough time to even empty my S&W's six shots, let alone dump a larger mag.

If you run hard SWC's, you should have plenty of penetration. Probably way more than enough for what we are discussing. Heck, my .38 Spl with 158 gn LSWC's has overpenetrated most critters I have shot with it. To include a calf that had been crippled up by coyotes. Both shots penetrated a 400# calf's front shoulder and came out the far side of the rib cage. This was with a 4" bbl and rounds running around 900 fps at a range of about 10'.

I have little experience with bear. But I can't see something on the lines of a .357 with a decent load not being adequate for a 300# animal if a long gun isn't an option. I'd personally go with a JSP. But that's just me.

HARD cast with a good lube won't leave much, if any, lead in the bore. I've shot a 357 mag with full power 158 gr bullets with only minor leading, so anything less should be OK. :words:

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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by brothaman » Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:17 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Sworbeyegib wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
.44 Special from a 4" is basically an obtuse .45ACP. Not a huge fan of Charter either. I think personally I'm settled on throwing in the Sig barrel and a mag of BB lead-free. I should be seeing Otherdude in the next couple weeks for a legit range day, but I have a feeling he'll either end up with a G30S or a G30SF with a 9x23 conversion barrel. Or an HK. Dude drives a BMW, so HK money is a possibility.
I would feel comfortable with any of those.

Any reason why he would go with a 9x23 conversion instead of a 10mm conversion? 10mm would be a bit more mainstream. I know some people have problems when using just a conversion barrel, but he could probably buy a G30 and a complete 10mm upper assembly for the price of an HK.
Dunno. Maybe he knows someone else who stocks or loads it. Or he found the dark part of the internet where wildcats are overhyped.
Well,. if yer buddy is willing to get freaky deaky with the wildcats, there's 460 Rowland. At least he'll be able to drop back to 45 ACP for the range and run the 460 Row strictly for his bear hunting/thwarting needs. Its $60 to bore the existing chamber at Lone Wolf and likely the same at the local GS. 460 Row ammo comes in few different flavors, too. And he could still run the same mags, same barrel same everything. I dunno, though. 460 Row has been on my mind since the G41 cam out.
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by clarence » Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:51 pm

FN FiveseveN + Elite ammunition
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Sworbeyegib » Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:58 pm

clarence wrote:FN FiveseveN + Elite ammunition
Nope. For a few reasons.
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by clarence » Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:33 pm

Reasons: lightweight, high capacity, low recoil, deep penetrating.
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