Bear and feral pigs whilst running

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Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:02 am

So I was talking to a dude from back in FL, and he mentioned a spike in black bear/feral pig sightings on the old running trails. He asked what kind of handgun I would recommend.

Right off the back, I double-checked my numbers for Florida black bear. They seem to max out, weight wise, at 500lb, but the running average is closer to 300lb. Feral pigs in the state average about 150lb, but I can't find a maximum record for the state. Still, .223 and 12ga #00 seem to be the most common for taking ferals in the state. We're not talking about Texarkana frankenpigs, although the possibility of porky stumbling on some bath salts does theoretically exist.

So, given that the three biggest threats are, in order, meth/crack junkies in the woods, 300lb black bears (not brown, not grizzly, no kodiak or polar or panda) and 150lb zombie pigs, what would be the best balance between portability and effectiveness? Otherdude was looking at a G30S/SF, but I immediately thought G29. I currently own an SW Model 27, G22/23/31C, and am not sold on a G29 until it comes in an S model. Otherdude wants to CCW IWB, I ordered an HPG Runners Kit Bag (Recon size, but sans PALS webbing) and the Deagle is just out of the question for weight reasons.

So what's the consensus. Bear spray, sure, but will .45ACP or .40/357Sig pack enough whoompf to make a dent in Smokey's ass? Or more realistically, to drop a zombieham on the leg? FMJ vs hard cast vs solid copper hollerpoints? Akimbo highpernts in the spinning deathblossom formation? Crackheads run faster than I do, by the power of science, and both black bears and pigs sprint at olympic speeds, so I don't expect "girly-scream-and-sprint" to generate good results.

Relevant story: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... servation/

They show a map of attacks. Those 4 red dots are roughly where Otherdude lives/works. Both of use use running trails that abut on wildlife preserves, because that's how Florida is, you go from suburbs to middle-of-the-fucking-jungle in half a mile.

TL:DR Crackheads, black bears, and methpigs, oh my. Wat do.
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by raptor » Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:14 am

I face similar risks on my walks in my MS woods. BTW you forgot cotton headed rattle moccasins and rabid raccoons.

I carry a S&W Model 65 (4 inch bbl) with 158 grain Speer Gold Dots. Alternatively a Glock 30 with 185 grain Hornady Critical Defense loads is my other wood walking fire arm. Both are carried OWB in a pancake holster with a secure strap (the brush will steal your firearm.)

I have black bear on my property but they are shy and run away. I do not feel underarmed in any way but would prefer the S&W if a black bear turned ugly.


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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Siggy01 » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:24 am

A glock 29/30 should be pretty good. I've seen feral hogs taken with a 1911 in .45 before. I personally would carry a .357 with a 4 in. barrel. Maybe a SP101 or a S&W. Load up with some buffalo bore for those black bear.
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by nolongpork » Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:00 pm

I would say a 10mm or 357 with non hollowpoint ammo

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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by MacWa77ace » Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:09 pm

Is that report from near where you used to live? I'm going up to Titusville this holiday. I always see the hogs [Deer and FL Panther too] on the side of the turnpike or 95 up that way, but have never seen a bear.

In Florida you don't need a hunting license and there is no season and no limits on the hogs. Just don't think you can take 'em on the side of the Turnpike, I've thought about it. Think you might have issues if you shot a bear in Florida, there was some lady a year or so back that they were looking to press charges against her for taking an alligator without a permit when she killed it in her kitchen. Whatever they can do to F U up they will, donchaknow. In Aug 2012 they removed the FL Black Bear from the state-threatened species list but its still illegal to injure or kill a bear or possess or sell bear parts. But of course if its you or the bear ... de 45 long slide with mit laser sighting.

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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Neptune Glory » Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:29 pm

Suggest .357 magnum or .44 magnum with (if you can find it) solid copper Barnes or Buffalo Barnes hollow point ammunition.

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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:30 pm

I used to ride out past Titusville to see an AR builder/cerakoter. Nice scenic route if you don't need to hug the coast.

Yeah, that attack was Seminole County, and I've always lived in unincorpoirated Seminole. Close enough for Lake Mary/Sanford amenities, but no city taxes and regulations. We have some ferals just down the road from me, and I'm planning on trying to Blackout with a can to cull the lot of them. Neighbor wrecked her bumper on one last year and I got carte blanche form the "neighborhood" as it is and the cattleman our behind the swamp to shoot anything that doesn't moo or bellow.

I'd probably be counting on loud noises to scare the bear off myself, which made me consider throwing the Sig barrel back in the 31C (converted to .40 currently) and keeping a mag or so of TMJ in it. I usually carry the compact anyway.

I'm not actually seeing a huge difference in terms of weight and velocity between 10mm and .40 from the same barrel with the same bullet. Couple hundred FPS doesn't seem enough to make a huge difference, so i question why 10mm is recommended for bear. Are people handloading it that much hotter from a 4" barrel? Same goes for Sig vs Magnum. 4" and 5" barrels, similar bullets (within a few grains of each other) and the Sigs are hotter in some than others. Right about 1470-off FPS for a 125gr CorBon in a 4" revolver or a 4" 357 Sig. G31 actually gets a 4.5" barrel, so it should come in closer to what a 5" wheelgun would do.

What am I missing, ballistically?
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Caenus » Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:26 pm

Hand loading really makes the 10mm get up there.

If you look at Buffalo Bore, they are pretty hot.

When I was in TX, never had a problem with hogs using a .45ACP with the 230 buffalo bore. I still carry the .45 in N AZ and there are tons of bears around there. Never had to shoot one as they usually pretty much ignore me and go about their business.

I am waiting to fall in love with a good 10mm, at which time the .45 will stay at home. Much more power in a 10mm w/15 rounds.
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:45 pm

I know a pawn shop that has a Delta Elite....but I'm not sure I'd really feel like putting out the cash to reload 10mm. I'll keep it in mind, and pass along the .45 BB suggestion as well. The plan, tentatively, if for me to borrow a few different compact .45s from friends and family and take the dude out for a range day,a nd let him try my model 27 as well. I'll have to see if I can scare up a G20/29 as well.
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Sworbeyegib » Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:35 pm

The general consensus on the interwebs is that Buffalo Bore is the gold standard when it comes to facing dangerous game with an autoloader. And that 10mm is the preferred round to use.

I did a quick check on the Buffalo Bore site, and saw these 220 grain hard casts, @1200fps. Though I've heard Buffalo Bore is known for "rounding up their numbers a bit", not unlike most companies. I could have sworn there was a thead awhile back about the the change of velocity for BB ammo when using a shorter barrel, but my google-fu failed me.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... tail&p=219

This, or the 200 grain FMJ seem to be the most popular with people who prefer a 10mm for defense against animals up to the size of grizzlies.

However, as you stated, black bears and average sized pigs run a good deal smaller than brownies, and aren't built nearly as thick. IMO I wouldn't have a problem using .40/.45/10mm+p loadings for a trail gun.

I do think that penetration is much more important that expansion in these regards, especially since we are talking about handgun calibers instead of rifle. I would use either FMJ, or hard cast if available. My logic behind this is that an animal on the charge is going to provide a much different profile than a traditional broadside shot. You will have much more skull and shoulders coming at you straight on that you need to effectively punch thru in order to get to the squishy stuff underneath.

Of course, this is all just my theory. Based on stuff I've read, heard, and my own logic separating what sounds right and wrong. I've never actually used a handgun on any sort game, I've only ever used a rifle.
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by gun toting monkeyboy » Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:24 pm

Okay, here is my take. Any gun you have with you is far better than anything you left at home. With regards to little bears (300# and under) and hogs, look at something that throws a fairly heavy bullet. Velocity is great and all, but you need the mass to get through to the vitals, and both species are noted for being a bit on the thick-skinned side. I would take whatever you are comfortable with, and load it up with heavy-for-caliber jacketed soft points or lead hard cast bullets. My lower limit for a back-up gun is .38 Super (not special) or a .357 Magnum. 147 grain bullets for the .38 Super, and 180-200 grain for the .357. While I have several .40 S&W guns, I don't find the penetration on them to be all that much better than a 9mm. And finding hard-cast or heavy hunting bullets for them is often more trouble than it is worth. Most of the bullets are designed to work with people, not thick-skinned game. If you hand load, you can cook up something with the 180 grain bullets that are made for the 10mm, and hold up a bit better. But again, you run into the pressure limits of the .40 S&W, and can only get the bullets moving so fast within that envelope. 10mm would be a good choice, but the ammunition is expensive, and the recoil is a bit on the harsh side. I ended up getting a .400 Corbon barrel and a heavier recoil spring for a 1911, and made decent hunting back-up gun. It is mostly a hand-load-only proposition, but I am fine with that. It lets me use a 1911, and gets me near 10mm performance without the heavy recoil.

Now that I have blathered on, I guess I will just go with "Get a .357 revolver". You can load the first chamber up with a shot load, and then follow up with whatever heavy bullet amuses you. That will deal with snakes, wild dogs, meth heads, and any larger critters you are likely to deal with, in a package that you can load up and not think about.

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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:43 pm

Do lighter TMJ/FMJTC bullets fail to penetrate deeply enough? Even 115gr WWB runs through two feet of ballistic gel. 230gr WWB (.45ACP) goes a bit further. Is this not sufficient, compared to a hard cast WC or SWC?
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Stercutus » Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:35 pm

Bears have very thick hides and plenty of fur even in the summer time. They have layers of fat, thicker bones than people and more muscle tissues. Pigs are pretty tough too. Rarely a bear or pig loses it's fear of people. A full sized .357 should work just fine. That will work well on meth heads too. I would not want anything less than that.
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by CitizenZ » Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:17 pm

The best solution for this is to wear a small bell, make lots of noise while running and stick to the most open trails. If the critters can hear you coming they will usually avoid you and get out of the way. The worst thing would be to surprise a mother bear while getting between her and her cubs, step on a rattler sunning him self or scaring a family of pigs.

For pistols anything 9mm and up with full power loads. Hunting type solid points preferred over hollow points. Penetration is more important than expansion. I carry a 6" 357 Magnum with Buffalo Bore hunting ammo, but I only run when chased.
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Sworbeyegib » Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:18 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:Do lighter TMJ/FMJTC bullets fail to penetrate deeply enough? Even 115gr WWB runs through two feet of ballistic gel. 230gr WWB (.45ACP) goes a bit further. Is this not sufficient, compared to a hard cast WC or SWC?
I don't know whether or not it is sufficient, but I'd rather err on the side of harder and heavier given the choice. Since he is not limited to using a handgun he already owns, he has the luxury of choosing the caliber he prefers, rather than choosing the optimal bullet for the gun he already carries.

Given the likely chance having to shoot thru thicker and denser bone and muscle than a person, I'm not sure how accurate of an analogous standard ballistic gel is. Maybe if they tested it while shooting thru a solid barrier, similar to how they marketed and designed Hornady Critical Duty. Didn't they test it by shooting thru auto glass, drywall, sheet metal etc... I'm not saying to use Critical Duty for dangerous game, but the concept of having to shoot thru something hard before getting to the meaty parts should be considered.

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Obviously this guy is much larger than what you have in your neck of the woods, but I just wanted to reiterate the profile of a charging animal. Shooting "center of mass" is more likely than not having a bullet going thru either the skull or shoulder.
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by dallas » Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:09 pm

gun toting monkeyboy wrote: You can load the first chamber up with a shot load, and then follow up with whatever heavy bullet amuses you. That will deal with snakes, wild dogs, meth heads, and any larger critters you are likely to deal with, in a package that you can load up and not think about.

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Why would you shot a snake?

I used a 44mag in my younger days for hog. Now I have a 10mm also.

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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Zimmy » Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:30 am

I guess you don't need one-shot drop killing power. You probably just to stop the attack with shock, awe, pain, or disability.

I gather you have a .357 Sig. I'd go with that with this ammo. A fist full of bullets makes it have an edge on a wheel gun .357 Mag, IMO.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... tail&p=124

Hogs are god-awful fast in the attack and the low center of gravity strike can put you on the ground real fast. In my experience with aggressive pigs, hogs will almost always try to hit you if they can get behind you. A lot of runs at your front will stop or peel to the side if you stand up to them.

The good side is the fact free range hogs almost never attack.

I don't understand bear behavior.
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:25 am

So I got a phone call from my old man last night. Brother's spotted what they estimate to be a 300lb+ bear digging through garbage cans in his new neighborhood. Trying to get him to send me the pictures that the neighbor got. Neighbor was inside his car and the bear was sniffing at the windows, all Jurrassic-park-y. Apparently tourists have been caught feeding them, and now they're, of course, looking for more of the food.
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by raptor » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Zimmy wrote: The good side is the fact free range hogs almost never attack.

I don't understand bear behavior.

I agree.

The only time a feral hog ran towards me was because he was trapped by a fence and I was in the only direction he could he get out. Most of the time they are rightfully skittish and run away. I see the brush moving away from me but rarely the whole pig.

I have never seen a bear despite the game cameras getting pictures of them (only at night). I know they are there but they stay away.

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:Apparently tourists have been caught feeding them, and now they're, of course, looking for more of the food.

Yes that will do it.

There is no better way to ensure the extermination of a wild creature than to feed him because he is cute and looks hungry.

That is a shame for the bear.

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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by dallas » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:12 pm

raptor wrote:
Zimmy wrote: The good side is the fact free range hogs almost never attack.

I agree.

The only time a feral hog ran towards me was because he was trapped by a fence and I was in the only direction he could he get out. Most of the time they are rightfully skittish and run away. I see the brush moving away from me but rarely the whole pig.
Don't forget there are sows running around with their piglets. My cousins got put up trees more than once by them on our deer lease on the Trinity river.

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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by raptor » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:31 pm

dallas wrote:
raptor wrote:
Zimmy wrote: The good side is the fact free range hogs almost never attack.

I agree.

The only time a feral hog ran towards me was because he was trapped by a fence and I was in the only direction he could he get out. Most of the time they are rightfully skittish and run away. I see the brush moving away from me but rarely the whole pig.
Don't forget there are sows running around with their piglets. My cousins got put up trees more than once by them on our deer lease on the Trinity river.

Don't worry I won't.

That is why I carry a S&W Model 65 or a Glock 30 when I am out and about.

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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by olbaid_dratsab » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:59 pm

Charter arms makes their bulldog in a 4in barrel. I thinkmyou can find used ones in a 3in barrel. I only plan for two legged predators so I'm not up to speed on .44splecial performance, but a 5 shot in that platform seems to be a nice ratio of size and umph.
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by Sworbeyegib » Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:12 am

olbaid_dratsab wrote:Charter arms makes their bulldog in a 4in barrel. I thinkmyou can find used ones in a 3in barrel. I only plan for two legged predators so I'm not up to speed on .44splecial performance, but a 5 shot in that platform seems to be a nice ratio of size and umph.
If I remember correctly, .44 special is comparable to .45acp.
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Re: Bear and feral pigs whilst running

Post by TacAir » Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:20 am

I've had black bear cross in front of me more than once. I carry a 357 snubby in town and a Govt model 45 out of town.

Bears are being a real issue here in Anchorage, the only place I know where people pay high taxes to live IN a game park... Last month, a woman got attacked by a wolf pack (yes, wolves) on the air base....

http://www.muni.org/Departments/parks/Pages/Bears.aspx

We've had kids on bicycles in the local parks mauled and still the effing game rangers won't kill the bears.
I guess it going to take someone getting killed....
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