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 Post subject: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:43 am 
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Anyone know anything about this weapon?
http://www.emf-company.com/store/pc/THE ... E-c282.htm

I was thinking this would be useful for a PAW situation. You would only have to worry about one caliber for your Main and Sidearm and you only have to have one type of magazine to carry and grab for reload.

As a follow up does anyone know if either 9mm or 40 S&W would have decent accuracy at 100-200 yards?


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 Post subject: Re: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:24 am 
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I've heard the carbine is fine but 9mm and 40 S&W are really spend at 50m and accuracy is on par with a spit wad.

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 Post subject: Re: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:10 am 
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What about .45 ACP? It's not the best for the sidearm but I know they used .45 ACP for carbines and smg's in WWII.


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 Post subject: Re: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:11 am 
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If you google "just right carbine review" you will find quite a few reviews. All seem to have a couple things in common, feeding problems and trigger problems. The trigger uses standard AR triggers parts so that is curable, however I feel it should work from the factory with having to drop another 100 in trigger parts in it. The feeding problems don't seem to be as easily cured, in fact most people said 1-2 FTF per mag was normal. This is not acceptable to me at all.

Until the company starts putting out a working product I would stay away.

These run about $600 from most of the places selling them. I think there are better choices in 9mm carbines in that price range.

As far as usable range goes I have shot 9mm carbines at over 200 yards...the round isn't "spent" at all even at that range.

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 Post subject: Re: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:48 am 
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s.leinicke wrote:
What about .45 ACP? It's not the best for the sidearm but I know they used .45 ACP for carbines and smg's in WWII.


Yes, a 45ACP carbine that was never used at any distance. Sure, when I owned a Ruger 9mm PC Carbine I too shot it at 100m. Here's what made me sell it. I'd shoot a milk jug @ 100m and it would basically put a hole in it. Then I'd grab my AR-15 and shoot a jug, it would blow it to pieces.

All pistol rds do basically the same thing and every expert agrees they are not up to the task. All experts agree the 5.56 is up to the task.

If you're dead set on one, cool. I'm sticking with my AR-15 for about $100 more than that 9mm.

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 Post subject: Re: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:58 am 
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http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/terminal.html

^^^ That was interesting.

Here's what I brewed up for a 9mm 125 gr moving at 1100 at the muzzle out to 300m

16" of drop at 100m for 262 ft lbs. 5.56 drops 1.6" and retains 910 ft lbs. At 200m the 9mm drops 69"(!) and has 212 ft lbs. Meh, I'm not impressed.

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 1110 -0.5 0 0 342 0
10 1091 0.97 0.2 0.03 330 0.47
20 1074 2.15 0.69 0.06 320 0.59
30 1059 3.04 1.48 0.09 311 0.77
40 1044 3.6 2.59 0.11 303 1.03
50 1030 3.85 4.01 0.14 294 1.35
60 1017 3.77 5.76 0.17 287 1.74
70 1005 3.36 7.85 0.2 280 2.19
80 993 2.59 10.29 0.23 274 2.7
90 982 1.48 13.07 0.26 268 3.27
100 972 0 16.22 0.29 262 3.9
110 962 -1.84 19.74 0.32 257 4.58
120 952 -4.06 23.63 0.36 252 5.32
130 943 -6.67 27.91 0.39 247 6.11
140 934 -9.67 32.58 0.42 242 6.95
150 925 -13.06 37.65 0.45 237 7.84
160 917 -16.86 43.12 0.48 233 8.78
170 909 -21.08 49.01 0.52 229 9.77
180 901 -25.71 55.31 0.55 225 10.81
190 893 -30.77 62.04 0.58 221 11.91
200 886 -36.26 69.21 0.62 218 13.05
210 878 -42.2 76.82 0.65 214 14.24
220 871 -48.58 84.87 0.69 211 15.47
230 864 -55.42 93.38 0.72 207 16.76
240 857 -62.72 102.36 0.76 204 18.09
250 850 -70.49 111.8 0.79 201 19.47
260 844 -78.74 121.72 0.83 198 20.9
270 837 -87.48 132.13 0.86 194 22.37
280 831 -96.7 143.03 0.9 192 23.9
290 825 -106.43 154.43 0.93 189 25.47
300 818 -116.66 166.33 0.97 186 27.08

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 Post subject: Re: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:46 pm 
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So a 9mm hole in your body wouldn't bother you at 100 yards.....alright then...

I always love it when someone says "all the experts agree"...there has never been a single time in history when all the experts have agreed on anything. When I was competing in full auto competitions I would often load a 90 grain JHP for my carbine. Out of a 16 inch barrel I would get close 1850 fps. Drop at 100 yard was negligible. I have no problem hitting a standard IPSC target out at 200 yards with my 125 reloads either out of my Mech Tech.

My personal favorite combo for carbine and pistol is my PPSh-41 and CZ-52. The velocity increase in the 7.62X25 over the 9mm is nice and both are accurate firearms. They don't share magazines like my Glock and Mech Tech but I can live with that.

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 Post subject: Re: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:28 pm 
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No, I don't want a 9mm hole, I want a 5.56 hole. :gonk: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:08 pm 
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I have always wondered about the philosophy of a pistol and carbine in the same caliber because then you don't have to worry about caliber interchange ability.

If you run out of that caliber then you now have two weapons that will not work. Or if you plan on trading for ammo later what if your local trader is out of your caliber?


But then again we all play the odds.


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 Post subject: Re: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:53 pm 
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But if they both use the same ammo then you can carry twice as much of it. Is 200 rounds of 5.56 and 200 round of 9mm better than 400 rounds of 7.62X25? If you use up 200 rounds of 5.56 then all you have is your pistol, if I shoot 200 rounds through my carbine I still have 200 rounds I can use in either. As for trading for ammo later I intend to own the trading post...lol.

Scavenging ammo? That is a joke, nobody is going to leave ammo laying around to be scavenged.

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 Post subject: Re: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:31 am 
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There really shouldn't be any debate whether or not 9X19 is as effective as 5.56X45, because it just isn't. That bieng true people often argue as to the real purpose of a 9mm (or other pistol calibered) carbine since a rifle round outperforms it by so much.

All I can say is this, given the choice between the two and going into COMBAT then take the rifle caliber and don't look back. If the PCC is as large and heavy as an AR or AK then they really do not make any since to use one.

Now If you want a compact carbine to be carried in a vehicle or backpack to be used as a personal defense weapon, then something like the Kel-Tec Sub-2000 makes a whole lot of since. Not only is it lighter, shorter, and cheaper than an AR-15 by large margins, it is also more effective and easier to fire accurately than a pistol in the same caliber. While not as useful as a handgun in a typical self-defense scenerio (due to the time taken to deploy the little rifle) it would more than suffice in many realistic emergency situations that require more defensive measures. Many people though, will simply prefer and handgun for such purposes.

In short, I like the concept of a well designed PCC but it will never substitute for a real rifle. I do not believe that all 9X19 rounds drop 16" at 100 meters though. I zero my Sub-2000 at 25 meters and I still easily hit a 10" paper at 100 Meters with 124g +P Gold Dots.


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 Post subject: Re: Re: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:54 am 
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Absintheur wrote:
But if they both use the same ammo then you can carry twice as much of it. Is 200 rounds of 5.56 and 200 round of 9mm better than 400 rounds of 7.62X25? If you use up 200 rounds of 5.56 then all you have is your pistol, if I shoot 200 rounds through my carbine I still have 200 rounds I can use in either. As for trading for ammo later I intend to own the trading post...lol.

Scavenging ammo? That is a joke, nobody is going to leave ammo laying around to be scavenged.


It isn't how many rounds can you carry if you standardize, think of it more as a weight issue. 30 round AR mags weigh a whole lot less than 30 round 9mm mags. In that scenario AR is the way to go.

I still feel someone who only wants to standardize on one round (5.7, 9mm, etc) has a lot advantages on the logistics side. One round for training, one round to stuck up on.


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 Post subject: Re: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:14 pm 
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This isn't my first ar. I already have my nice shiny Armalite m15a2 NM I was just thinking that it would be useful to have something that fits both main and sidarm. You can easily carry 500 rounds of 9mm and can use them either way. I'm not arguing that 5.56 isn't a better round, but I think that a 9mm would be just as usable for hunting and would reduce the number of things you have to carry. Plus being able to use the same mags in both guns makes it more interchangable.

So what will be good for longer than pistol distances (50-200 yards), will take glock mags, and will be decently rugged. (I'm not looking for quite AK stability, but I would like something that will function pretty well for daily use.


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 Post subject: Re: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:10 am 
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Also, I've decided the Kel-Tech sub 2000 is too ugly to ever purchase.


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 Post subject: Re: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:20 am 
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s.leinicke wrote:
This isn't my first ar. I already have my nice shiny Armalite m15a2 NM I was just thinking that it would be useful to have something that fits both main and sidarm. You can easily carry 500 rounds of 9mm and can use them either way. I'm not arguing that 5.56 isn't a better round, but I think that a 9mm would be just as usable for hunting and would reduce the number of things you have to carry. Plus being able to use the same mags in both guns makes it more interchangable.

So what will be good for longer than pistol distances (50-200 yards), will take glock mags, and will be decently rugged. (I'm not looking for quite AK stability, but I would like something that will function pretty well for daily use.


Uh, the JR carbine isn't an AR (it just looks like one) and it hasn't been proven to be "decently rugged" just yet. Using a 9X19 rifle for hunting over a 5.56X45 rifle? I guess it depends on what you are hunting. If you are shooting small deer under 50 yards or so then either will work but, I can honestly say I would rather have something ELSE for serious hunting than either an AR or 9mm Rifle. It sounds like you are considering "bugging out" with this 9mm Carbine and that is probably a really bad idea. Why take an oversized pistol in place of a rifle? When you have two weapons that not only weigh the same but are basically the same size (in the case of the JR and AR) than why in the world does it make more sense to carry the less powerful one when your life may depend on it.

The logic that somehow you will have less to carry with a JR Carbine (than say an AR) is critically flawed unless you actually advocate carrying less ammunition and magazines overall. The fact is if you have a rifle than you will need ammunition and magazines for it regardless of caliber. Since the loaded 5.56 and 9X19 cartriges weigh basically the same, taking the more powerful one makes a whole lot more sense for survival conditions.

Also, what is the purpose of actually carrying a rifle and handgun in the same caliber? When you run out of mags and ammo for one than you cannot use the other. It sort of negates the purpose of carrying a pistol in the first place since under 99% of circumstances you will use the rifle first over the handgun thus reducing your ammunition supply until it is depleted. You will likely loose the usefullness of a pistol as a last ditch defensive weapon. The ammunition and magazine compatibility of a Pistol Calibered Carbine is great for the logistics of collectors and shooters but it doesn't have any real advantage in a survival situation.

In the end I think the Pistol Calibered Carbine makes a whole lot of sense as a Plinker or Personal Defense Weapon. But choosing one over a rifle when a rifle is needed is utterly foolish.

s.leinicke wrote:
Also, I've decided the Kel-Tech sub 2000 is too ugly to ever purchase.


Ok. You obviously make all of your firearm purchases on the most critically important factors. I will not question your logic. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:00 pm 
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Why buy something in 9mm when you can get 5.56 in the same package? Even as an SBR, I'd take a 5.56 over the 9mm, so, personally, why spend the money? Just buy another (or just buy) an AR, IMO.

Unless you just want one.

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 Post subject: Re: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:11 pm 
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s.leinicke wrote:
Also, I've decided the Kel-Tech sub 2000 is too ugly to ever purchase.

But you own a Glock???


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 Post subject: Re: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:24 pm 
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IF it worked reliably, and I felt like spending he cash to SBR, and it was reasonably priced...then it'd be a great little car/backpack gun. AR and other rifle calibers lose too much velocity if the barrel was say...8"

It'd have to be more compact than an AR and be more accurate than the handgun it is mated with or what's the point? Could just get a PLR16 w/77gr HPs.

Too bad it doesn't come in 10mm

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 Post subject: Re: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:25 pm 
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In the OP the situation described was a PAW situation. Unless you are an active member of a military unit the pistol caliber carbine makes a lot of sense. The rounds are generally quieter and also easier to suppress. for hunting and personal defense the 9mm out of a carbine has more than enough power and range. Being able to use the same ammo and magazines is a plus as well.

With very little practice the 9mm is well within it's capabilities at 200 yards. As a civilian, engaging when you can sneak away is very foolish. With BG's 200+yards away the smart thing to do is E&E. The same caliber also allows the use of a single suppressor without loss of efficiency. And as pointed out only having to stock one kind of ammo is also a plus.

I think many have very unrealistic ideas of bugging out to the woods, living off the land, and scavenging things like ammo. There are others who say they will trade...but trade what? If you are living in the woods you won't have food to trade most likely. There won't be ammo laying around to pick up and trade either. Land owners won't take kindly to you poaching their food supply either, I know you won't want to be caught on my families property poaching in the PAW.

Most common scenario will be defending buildings in a community, an area were the sub caliber carbine really shines. I won't throw away my MBR's but the carbine would be the first I would grab for in an emergency.

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 Post subject: Re: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:32 pm 
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doc66 wrote:
Why buy something in 9mm when you can get 5.56 in the same package? Even as an SBR, I'd take a 5.56 over the 9mm, so, personally, why spend the money? Just buy another (or just buy) an AR, IMO.

Unless you just want one.


This.

Or, get an M1 Carbine. Right Doc? :lol:

I love mine and will continue to use it until I get an AR again..

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 Post subject: Re: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:51 pm 
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I am suprised people want the shorter AR's as long term bug out weapons simply based on noise and muzzle blast, talk about drawing attention to yourself.

If you have to fire it inside a building with no ear defence then you are in real trouble as you may well be deaf for a few minutes(at least), surplus full bore ball is also going to light you up like a christmas tree at night out of a short barrel.

It's a "look at me" choice of weapon in world where it may well pay to be less then conspicuous.


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 Post subject: Re: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:18 am 
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98pointsix wrote:
s.leinicke wrote:
Also, I've decided the Kel-Tech sub 2000 is too ugly to ever purchase.

But you own a Glock???


http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?op ... view&id=90
http://wethearmed.com/index.php?topic=5710.0

Glocks are beautiful.


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 Post subject: Re: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:34 pm 
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s.leinicke wrote:
Glocks are beautiful.

I love my Glock,
I love my truck,
I love my dog,
My love for these freakishly tough, and reliable things dont make them any less ugly.


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 Post subject: Re: JR Carbine
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:56 pm 
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s.leinicke wrote:
What about .45 ACP? It's not the best for the sidearm but I know they used .45 ACP for carbines and smg's in WWII.


That was before the 10mm AUTO was conceived.

The only pistol-caliber carbine I'd want is one chambered in 10mm, which is the most powerful and versatile of the so-called "service cartridges."

Otherwise an AR-pattern SBR chambered for a pistol-caliber has nothing over the same gun in 5.56mm. Then, of course, there's the 300BO ... but that'll take us so off-topic ... :shock:

8-)


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