2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by moab » Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:20 pm

MacWa77ace wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:15 am
moab wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:29 am

Rereading this thread. It's quite interesting.

Jeepercreeper (Or maybe it was Rickoshea that posted them?)- I was looking at those pics. And wondering. Are PSA's AR10's DPMS style? I assume DPMS AR10's are DPMS style. On the cheap end which of those two would be a better rifle do you think? Assuming the PSA is DPMS style. And what is the next step up in an AR10 in DPMS style?

Anyone else feel free to chime in here. I'm interested in as many opinions as I can get. I've built AK's for the last 15 years. And completely ignored the AR platform since getting out of the Marine Corps.
IIRC there's really only about 5 [7] main mfr of lowers in the US, everyone else [distributors] either buys finished or 80% and finishes them from these 5 [7] mfr. This includes AR10 and AR15 lowers. These same companies make uppers. So you could buy a PSA or Spikes or other and they could all be originated from the same plant. There are markings that identify the plant on some, others are not marked.

So obviously there can be differences in quality and tolerances applied to lowers made in the same plant but finished by different sellers.
Do you have any recommendations in a low cost to med cost AR10? It sounds like they are all the same. Within say the DPMS pattern. I'm assuming DPMS and PSA are the low end. But it's hard from all the lacking tech specs to identify what is the best med end. Or best next step up from a PSA? And is that step worth it? Or maybe starting with a PSA and just upgrading certain parts? I'm also not opposed to assembling one myself. But not sure I want to go down that rabbit hole of figuring every single individual part. Would be quite happy to buy and upper and lower and avoid the rifle tax.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by boskone » Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:10 pm

moab wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:20 pm
MacWa77ace wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:15 am
moab wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:29 am

Rereading this thread. It's quite interesting.

Jeepercreeper (Or maybe it was Rickoshea that posted them?)- I was looking at those pics. And wondering. Are PSA's AR10's DPMS style? I assume DPMS AR10's are DPMS style. On the cheap end which of those two would be a better rifle do you think? Assuming the PSA is DPMS style. And what is the next step up in an AR10 in DPMS style?

Anyone else feel free to chime in here. I'm interested in as many opinions as I can get. I've built AK's for the last 15 years. And completely ignored the AR platform since getting out of the Marine Corps.
IIRC there's really only about 5 [7] main mfr of lowers in the US, everyone else [distributors] either buys finished or 80% and finishes them from these 5 [7] mfr. This includes AR10 and AR15 lowers. These same companies make uppers. So you could buy a PSA or Spikes or other and they could all be originated from the same plant. There are markings that identify the plant on some, others are not marked.

So obviously there can be differences in quality and tolerances applied to lowers made in the same plant but finished by different sellers.
Do you have any recommendations in a low cost to med cost AR10? It sounds like they are all the same. Within say the DPMS pattern. I'm assuming DPMS and PSA are the low end. But it's hard from all the lacking tech specs to identify what is the best med end. Or best next step up from a PSA? And is that step worth it? Or maybe starting with a PSA and just upgrading certain parts? I'm also not opposed to assembling one myself. But not sure I want to go down that rabbit hole of figuring every single individual part. Would be quite happy to buy and upper and lower and avoid the rifle tax.
You can get a LaRue kit--everything but the lower--for about $1,300. Looks like about $400 more than PSA, in line with some of the other well-regarded brands, and and another $150 for a lower. Plus tools, if you don't own them.

I have a 6.5 Grendel version of that kit, and the only thing I'm thinking of changing is the buttstock; it's a good piece, but I'd like a bit of rise and something that doesn't aggressively depilate a patch under my jaw from extended firing. (Note: this stock is hardly unique in these characteristics; bog-standard stocks do it as well.)

I will throw this caveat: I own two uppers, not a safe full of ARs. One's from a now-defunct local company that started out as a standard M-forgery built behind an LWRC barrel, the other's the LaRue.

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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by moab » Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:10 pm

boskone wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:10 pm
moab wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:20 pm
MacWa77ace wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:15 am
moab wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:29 am

Rereading this thread. It's quite interesting.

Jeepercreeper (Or maybe it was Rickoshea that posted them?)- I was looking at those pics. And wondering. Are PSA's AR10's DPMS style? I assume DPMS AR10's are DPMS style. On the cheap end which of those two would be a better rifle do you think? Assuming the PSA is DPMS style. And what is the next step up in an AR10 in DPMS style?

Anyone else feel free to chime in here. I'm interested in as many opinions as I can get. I've built AK's for the last 15 years. And completely ignored the AR platform since getting out of the Marine Corps.
IIRC there's really only about 5 [7] main mfr of lowers in the US, everyone else [distributors] either buys finished or 80% and finishes them from these 5 [7] mfr. This includes AR10 and AR15 lowers. These same companies make uppers. So you could buy a PSA or Spikes or other and they could all be originated from the same plant. There are markings that identify the plant on some, others are not marked.

So obviously there can be differences in quality and tolerances applied to lowers made in the same plant but finished by different sellers.
Do you have any recommendations in a low cost to med cost AR10? It sounds like they are all the same. Within say the DPMS pattern. I'm assuming DPMS and PSA are the low end. But it's hard from all the lacking tech specs to identify what is the best med end. Or best next step up from a PSA? And is that step worth it? Or maybe starting with a PSA and just upgrading certain parts? I'm also not opposed to assembling one myself. But not sure I want to go down that rabbit hole of figuring every single individual part. Would be quite happy to buy and upper and lower and avoid the rifle tax.
You can get a LaRue kit--everything but the lower--for about $1,300. Looks like about $400 more than PSA, in line with some of the other well-regarded brands, and and another $150 for a lower. Plus tools, if you don't own them.

I have a 6.5 Grendel version of that kit, and the only thing I'm thinking of changing is the buttstock; it's a good piece, but I'd like a bit of rise and something that doesn't aggressively depilate a patch under my jaw from extended firing. (Note: this stock is hardly unique in these characteristics; bog-standard stocks do it as well.)

I will throw this caveat: I own two uppers, not a safe full of ARs. One's from a now-defunct local company that started out as a standard M-forgery built behind an LWRC barrel, the other's the LaRue.
$1200 and free assembly. Not bad. Damn that guy makes some high end rifles! I think the cheapest complete AR10 was just under 3 grand.

1) What about their breaks? Anything better?

2) What are the furniture (I guess just rail.) options for an AR10?

3) Is that a non functional forward assist? Is that just common to AR10's?

4) I also assume I need to choose a DPMS fitted upper?

5) I like this a lot. But what exactly makes it worth $631(or twice the price) more than the PSA? I don't mean to sound like a lowball jerk. lol. Honestly. Just curious. Because I have no idea.
"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why would we let them have ideas?" Josef Stalin

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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by boskone » Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:08 pm

moab wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:10 pm
$1200 and free assembly. Not bad. Damn that guy makes some high end rifles! I think the cheapest complete AR10 was just under 3 grand.
Yup. He's proud of his product. :)
1) What about their breaks? Anything better?
I think that would depend on what you want. The one it comes with is adequate as a muzzle break and flash hider (I haven't noticed any marked difference from a standard bird cage), but has threading for an--IIRC--1/2-28 thread suppressor.
2) What are the furniture (I guess just rail.) options for an AR10?
I think most AR-10 lowers use AR-15 triggers and grips, maybe buttstocks (not sure if the buffer tubes are different dimensions). AR-10s being in the situation they are, it probably depends on the lower. :p
3) Is that a non functional forward assist? Is that just common to AR10's?
The AR-10 style rifle has no assist; the assist on the AR-15 style rifle is functional. I even needed it once, after shooting some steel-cased Wolf. :D
4) I also assume I need to choose a DPMS fitted upper?
I think you mean lower? The "ultimate upper" kits ship with everything but a lower receiver. LaRue offer two styles, depending on lower: DPMS Gen-1 and M110; aside from the upper receiver itself, I don't believe there are any differences.

As for DPMS gen-1 vs M110...hell if I know. Trying to research AR-10 parts honestly gives me a headache, since they lack the standardization of AR-15s. I'd probably go with DPMS, just on the general assumption that it's older and would have more parts...but I can't even really guarantee that, since the M110 is the new hotness inherited from the military.
5) I like this a lot. But what exactly makes it worth $631(or twice the price) more than the PSA? I don't mean to sound like a lowball jerk. lol. Honestly. Just curious. Because I have no idea.
Hey, no worries. I'm all about getting the most bang for my buck.

I honestly can't say in a general mechanical sense. I'd say the fit and finish on the LaRue is likely better, but I don't know if the performance will be all that different. I think there are probably two main differences:
  • The trigger's the big one: I'd be willing to bet the trigger on the LaRue is better. I liked it so much in my Grendel build that I bought one for my beater lower. They're $80 right now, so you could just buy one and store the PSA trigger somewhere.
  • The buttstock. It's kinda gimmicky, but it's made out of aluminum and has built-in cleaning rod storage. Nothing major, though.
A more minor difference, alluded to above, will be the handguard attachment. It's totally independent of the barrel nut, and the handguard has a nice beefy feel. I think it's still compatible with standard-compatability barrel nuts, but you'd have the small flanges hanging off the side.

Based on my 6.5 Grendel, I've been really pleased with it. Moreso than PSA, had they had a Grendel at the time? I dunno. Maybe I can hazard an educated guess next week, if I can get out to the range with my PSA upper.

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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by moab » Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:41 pm

boskone wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:08 pm
moab wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:10 pm
$1200 and free assembly. Not bad. Damn that guy makes some high end rifles! I think the cheapest complete AR10 was just under 3 grand.
Yup. He's proud of his product. :)
1) What about their breaks? Anything better?
I think that would depend on what you want. The one it comes with is adequate as a muzzle break and flash hider (I haven't noticed any marked difference from a standard bird cage), but has threading for an--IIRC--1/2-28 thread suppressor.
2) What are the furniture (I guess just rail.) options for an AR10?
I think most AR-10 lowers use AR-15 triggers and grips, maybe buttstocks (not sure if the buffer tubes are different dimensions). AR-10s being in the situation they are, it probably depends on the lower. :p
3) Is that a non functional forward assist? Is that just common to AR10's?
The AR-10 style rifle has no assist; the assist on the AR-15 style rifle is functional. I even needed it once, after shooting some steel-cased Wolf. :D
4) I also assume I need to choose a DPMS fitted upper?
I think you mean lower? The "ultimate upper" kits ship with everything but a lower receiver. LaRue offer two styles, depending on lower: DPMS Gen-1 and M110; aside from the upper receiver itself, I don't believe there are any differences.

As for DPMS gen-1 vs M110...hell if I know. Trying to research AR-10 parts honestly gives me a headache, since they lack the standardization of AR-15s. I'd probably go with DPMS, just on the general assumption that it's older and would have more parts...but I can't even really guarantee that, since the M110 is the new hotness inherited from the military.
5) I like this a lot. But what exactly makes it worth $631(or twice the price) more than the PSA? I don't mean to sound like a lowball jerk. lol. Honestly. Just curious. Because I have no idea.
Hey, no worries. I'm all about getting the most bang for my buck.

I honestly can't say in a general mechanical sense. I'd say the fit and finish on the LaRue is likely better, but I don't know if the performance will be all that different. I think there are probably two main differences:
  • The trigger's the big one: I'd be willing to bet the trigger on the LaRue is better. I liked it so much in my Grendel build that I bought one for my beater lower. They're $80 right now, so you could just buy one and store the PSA trigger somewhere.
  • The buttstock. It's kinda gimmicky, but it's made out of aluminum and has built-in cleaning rod storage. Nothing major, though.
A more minor difference, alluded to above, will be the handguard attachment. It's totally independent of the barrel nut, and the handguard has a nice beefy feel. I think it's still compatible with standard-compatability barrel nuts, but you'd have the small flanges hanging off the side.

Based on my 6.5 Grendel, I've been really pleased with it. Moreso than PSA, had they had a Grendel at the time? I dunno. Maybe I can hazard an educated guess next week, if I can get out to the range with my PSA upper.
Thanks for taking all that time. I was asking about the DPMS selection as you have to choose which style lower you want the upper designed for. And I think you answered correctly - DPMS.

The furniture I was wondering about is the handguard/rail. Just wondering who makes those for AR10's and what kind of selection there is?

Would love to hear your range report comparing the two. In all the PSA reviews I've read. The only major difference is the fit and finish. Everyone claims the higher end brands have a smoother action. But I'm not sure how much that affects accuracy?
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by moab » Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:06 pm

Check this place out. https://www.deltateamtactical.com/308-W ... _3223.html Is the Aero upper considered not DPMS?
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by boskone » Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:48 pm

moab wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:06 pm
Check this place out. https://www.deltateamtactical.com/308-W ... _3223.html Is the Aero upper considered not DPMS?
I'm not sure; they're certainly DPMS pattern, but I dunno if they're DPMS gen-1 or gen-2. Or if that matters for uppers.

Here's what looks like a decent primer on AR-10/AR-308/whatever parts types and compatibility. It doesn't address the DPMS gen-1 vs gen-2 thing, but I'm not sure offhand exactly what that means; maybe both generations use the same uppers? No clue.

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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by JF89 » Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:30 am

NT2C wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:27 pm
The Twizzler wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:57 pm
Ian at Forgotten Weapons has a video on those compared to the M14. It seems like the Italians (BM-59) did a much better job than the US (M-14) at what I think we can both agree are really just upgraded Garands.
No argument from me on that score, but it's a very nice upgrade.

One thing that should be noted though, for anyone thinking of buying one, you are limited to NATO-spec 7.62x51mm ammo. Because it was made to have a full-auto cyclic rate of 750rpm, and because .308 Win brass has thinner case walls, it tends to rip the heads off .308 rounds, leading to all sorts of nasty stuff happening, like broken extractors and getting a face full of expanding gases. The owner's manual specifically warns you about this and notes that using anything but 147-150gr 7.62x51mm NATO cartridges in it will void the warranty.
I did not know this, thanks for the heads up. Does this apply to PTRs, FALs and AR10 variants too?

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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by NT2C » Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:39 am

JF89 wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:30 am
NT2C wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:27 pm
The Twizzler wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:57 pm
Ian at Forgotten Weapons has a video on those compared to the M14. It seems like the Italians (BM-59) did a much better job than the US (M-14) at what I think we can both agree are really just upgraded Garands.
No argument from me on that score, but it's a very nice upgrade.

One thing that should be noted though, for anyone thinking of buying one, you are limited to NATO-spec 7.62x51mm ammo. Because it was made to have a full-auto cyclic rate of 750rpm, and because .308 Win brass has thinner case walls, it tends to rip the heads off .308 rounds, leading to all sorts of nasty stuff happening, like broken extractors and getting a face full of expanding gases. The owner's manual specifically warns you about this and notes that using anything but 147-150gr 7.62x51mm NATO cartridges in it will void the warranty.
I did not know this, thanks for the heads up. Does this apply to PTRs, FALs and AR10 variants too?
Not owning any of those I can't say if it does or not, but it is something to keep in mind when dealing with rifles that can chamber both cartridges.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by RickOShea » Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:49 pm

JF89 wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:30 am
I did not know this, thanks for the heads up. Does this apply to PTRs, FALs and AR10 variants too?
Not usually. PTR and DSA's sites say .308 is okay. Most folks will tell you to keep a broken shell extractor with you, just in case.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by JF89 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:39 pm

The Bren 2 looks cool


http://youtu.be/BbcxSUv4xnA

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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by NT2C » Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:23 pm

JF89 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:39 pm
The Bren 2 looks cool


http://youtu.be/BbcxSUv4xnA
It seems to be just a CZ SCAR clone
Nonsolis Radios Sediouis Fulmina Mitto. - USN Gunner's Mate motto

Sic quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit; occidentis telum est - Seneca the Younger, Epistles

We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the Courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who would pervert the Constitution. - A. Lincoln

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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by JF89 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:53 am

NT2C wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:23 pm
JF89 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:39 pm
The Bren 2 looks cool


http://youtu.be/BbcxSUv4xnA
It seems to be just a CZ SCAR clone
better than a scar and cheaper price.

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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by BullOnParade » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:14 am

So I just picked up a Stag 10 last weekend, which is a DPMS high pattern AR10 that doesn't play well with other receiver sets, which makes it appealing to the Canadian market. It can't be an "AR" pattern rifle if it doesn't fit with other AR pattern rifles, right? Don't tell Bambi.

I haven't fired it yet, but everyone online says to upgrade the trigger. The handguard is okay, but I wish more companies would just machine a qd socket directly.

a pretty good article on compatibly of parts (AR 10 vs AR 15)

Receiver extensions, stocks, grips, triggers, gas block, gas tube, safety selectors and bolt release* are all good to go (B.A.D. levers don't always play nice?). Buffer and spring, BCG, handguard are all proprietary, handguard being the biggest challenge with variance between upper receiver threads and rail heights.
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