Why we really need a gun

[crypto]

Dad was LEO for 30 years, constable for 15. Never shot anyone and only drew his gun a few times. Never carried when he was not working.

I'm surprised by this. Seems a shame to have all that training and not carry it off-duty. I always carry for self-defense.

What firearms training? He was a cop.

[shiddymunkie]

Like a lot of people here, I feel like I need a gun "just in case". For me, it's worth it if for no other reason than simple peace of mind, like knowing I have an ace up my sleeve. I am reasonable enough to surmise that I will probably never have to use my guns in self defense, and honestly that is exactly what I hope for.

On one hand, it is statistically unlikely that a person will ever need a firearm to defend themselves...and yet, last year there were 1,250,000 violent crimes in the US. When you consider that the US has a population of about 311,000,000, that means in a given year, you're more likely being a victim of a violent crime than being dealt a Straight or Flush in Poker. That's a .4% chance, which may not sound like much, but remember that this is the chance of it happening per year. Too look at it another way, there is a 26% chance that a violent crime will happen to you by the age of 65. This risk will vary from state-to-state and city-to-city...I highly suggest that people Google crime rates in their town so they can get a better idea of how likely the "unlikely" could strike. Remember, even a 49% chance is considered "statistically unlikely" -- statistics' idea of unlikely and my idea of unlikely are very different.

To recap, I own guns as a safety net should I find myself in an unlikely event where my or my family's lives could be at stake. It's the only type of life insurance that can actually save the life/lives of your loved ones, as opposed to acting retroactively (when its already too late to save them). I might even go as far as to say that it's borderline irresponsible to NOT have some way to defend your life, and the lives of those dependent on you, should you find yourself in such a situation. Police are great, but they have to be notified before they can come, and even then, they have to travel to your location before they can help. How many life-threatening situations occur that simply do not allow the time and/or opportunity for law enforcement to arrive BEFORE shit goes down? Is that a risk you are willing to take? Is that a risk you are willing to let your family take?

Not me. I'd rather have guns and not use them for anything more than funsies, than desperately need a gun but not have one.

[RickOShea]

i dont know about you guys, but taking a girl out to the shooting range for a first date has always had great results.

Quite true.....AND guns and ammo can actually be cheaper than the care-&-feeding of a Donk.

[AS556]

I own my guns so that I can shoot people. Defensively, of course.

All of my guns except my .22 I bought purely for defensive purposes, and although I enjoy shooting all my guns recreationally I understand what their real purpose is. I, and I'm sure a ton of other ZSers, don't strap on a pistol before leaving everyday just to look cool.

[HellSpork]

My house has never caught fire. I still keep a fire-extinguisher.

I've never been in a serious automobile accident. I still wear my seat-belt.

I've never been robbed, beaten, or otherwise victimized. I still own firearms and carry whenever possible.


Simply put, I NEED a gun. I need it because *I* am responsible for the safety of myself, my family, and my property.
The police may be good at their job, but they're people just like you and me. People that are never standing right behind the bad guy when he pulls his gun. It's just a fact of live that police have a response time, and that time will never be ZERO. For the most part, they come in AFTER the crime has been committed, take statements, and MAYBE catch the guy later. That's all well and good, but that doesn't turn the clock back and UN-STAB the little old lady down the street.

If you REALLY want to be freaked the hell out, look up "Warren vs. District of Columbia". Read up on that. I won't give away the whole story, but as per the court system the police have no legal requirement to protect you.
So, with that in mind, if my choices are to fight back or to bend over and pray I survive, I think you know what I'm going to choose.

[jamoni]

Well, other than hunting, I've used .22s and .38s to put down trapped/injured critters. I've pointed but not fired a .38 for home defense a handful of times: once to chase some jackass out of my car, once to chase a pack off thugs off my porch when they wouldn't leave nicely, once when a neighbor's domestic dispute tried to come into my house, etc.
I've used the same revolver for insurance against dog packs/mountain lions/the Blair Witch while camping,but never had to fire it. Only problems I've ever had were riding a bicycle past some dog packs, and all I did was stop, get the gun out, walk past the dogs, and make loud noises at them. The .38 was just backup in case they got stupid.

[brothaman]

I don't need a gun. I didn't need kids, either,.. but I got 'em. What can can ya do?

I guess I'll just keep 'em.. the guns and the kids, I mean.

[Osiris Risen]

I dogsat a dog once that would have been put down with a .22 if I wasn't living within city limits (and unable to legally discharge a firearm), but I wouldn't want to do my own pet that way. I'd hate for it to go wrong and have my last memory of them being something awful.

I need guns or else my ammo purchasing habit would eventually lead to my floor collapsing beneath the weight of it all. So they're essential to the structural integrity of my house.

[majorhavoc]

I need guns or else my ammo purchasing habit would eventually lead to my floor collapsing beneath the weight of it all. So they're essential to the structural integrity of my house.

[/thread]

[Gingerbread Man]

Why I need a gun? Well, because I and my predecessors didn't claw our way out of the muck to defend ourselves with sharp sticks and rocks.

Same reason I'm posting this on the internet and not shouting out my window.

[Kutter_0311]

If you REALLY want to be freaked the hell out, look up "Warren vs. District of Columbia"

Yeah, there's 14 hours of "WHY don't I have a gun?" Oh, yeah, because District of Columbia, not State of Virginia...

Warren is one where so many bad things converge that I hate to use it as an example as much as Hitler and Nazis.

Personally, I've had enough close calls that I always carry a gun. I've never had to shoot anyone, and I don't want to, but since I like being alive, and my family needs me alive, "shoot a mf'r" is above "get killed by a mf'r" and way, way above "let mf'r take/hurt/kill my kid because my disabled ass can't run fast enough to catch him."

I also consider my AK's to be my deer guns. Good thing they came with 5rd mags...

Pleasant side-effects of carrying a gun: I feel I can stop and offer assistance to people when it might be less than safe. I can offer protection to people I think might be in danger. The "OMFGWHERE'SMYWEAPON" anxiety that the Corps gave me is quieted by adjusting my unevenly weighted gunbelt.

[400 Grains]

I have a lot of respect for people who put down their own pets. I think it's incredibly kind to do that. I've had to kill several sick or injured chickens who were primarily pets (liked the eggs too, but our flock never got over 4 birds) and it's surprisingly hard. I think putting down a more normal pet like a dog or cat would be really difficult. Our vet makes house calls when it comes to euthanasia, so if that happens at least our mutts will be in the comfort of their own home. Still feels kind of like a cop-out, though, having somebody else do it.

If your pet is in a remote location, away from a vet, I can understand putting it down with a firearm if necessary.

The guys that just prefer to put a bullet in their dog's brain, rather than a quiet, peaceful injection, I have some reservations about. But then, I do consider my dogs family, and I'm not going to be shooting any other family members in the head by choice either.

[400 Grains]

Pleasant side-effects of carrying a gun: I feel I can stop and offer assistance to people when it might be less than safe. I can offer protection to people I think might be in danger. The "OMFGWHERE'SMYWEAPON" anxiety that the Corps gave me is quieted by adjusting my unevenly weighted gunbelt.

I think many of us that carry do so more for our family and others sake, than our own. Especially those, like you, that have worn a uniform, and been charged with protecting others. The "not today, asshole" feeling one gets from interceding on someone else's behalf, when they desperately need your help, was the #1 reward for being in law enforcement. Much like Hemingway's quote about the hunting of men, those that have used force to stop someone from hurting others, will probably never have any experiences that are as exhilarating.

I've had a few opportunities since those days, and I stand ready for the next one.

[400 Grains]

I think an SD weapon is a bit of insurance. From a financial standpoint insurance is generally a gamble. For most people who determine they want a gun for SD, they are theorizing a certain set of factors will eventually be in play.

Example for those who will jump all over that statement from my own little world:

Dad was LEO for 30 years, constable for 15. Never shot anyone and only drew his gun a few times. Never carried when he was not working.

I've heard those kinds of Andy of Mayberry stories before, and never can wrap my brain around them. I only drew my gun a few times, most shifts.

I have no idea what it would be like to be a cop where there were no robbery or burglary calls, no felony warrants coming back on vehicle stops, no gangs, etc. I'd have been bored out of my mind.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

I have a lot of respect for people who put down their own pets. I think it's incredibly kind to do that. I've had to kill several sick or injured chickens who were primarily pets (liked the eggs too, but our flock never got over 4 birds) and it's surprisingly hard. I think putting down a more normal pet like a dog or cat would be really difficult. Our vet makes house calls when it comes to euthanasia, so if that happens at least our mutts will be in the comfort of their own home. Still feels kind of like a cop-out, though, having somebody else do it.

If your pet is in a remote location, away from a vet, I can understand putting it down with a firearm if necessary.

The guys that just prefer to put a bullet in their dog's brain, rather than a quiet, peaceful injection, I have some reservations about. But then, I do consider my dogs family, and I'm not going to be shooting any other family members in the head by choice either.

I'll bite. I put several of my cats down with a suppressed 9mm. Why? I love my cats.

My cats hate the carrier. Even after being very used to it, being put in the carrier and driven a half-hour to the vet so sit around a bunch of strange animals in a place that smells wrong has got to be worse for them than if you or me were bound, gagged, and thrown in a trunk and driven into the Nevada desert. Every time, my cats knew that the carrier meant a nerve racking experience.

Or, I could take them outside (remember these are dying cats, they aren't in the mood to run off wild) give them some fish and some cool water, and pet them until the fell asleep next to me. Their last waking moments on earth were peaceful and enjoyable, and they never felt a thing.

Take it as your will, but I did the same to my collie when he got wrecked by a car. I sat there and rubbed his head for a minute, spoke softly to him, and put one through his brain stem so he didn't have to bleed out and suffer for 3-4 minutes in the street. Have whatever reservation you will. The vet might be an option if he would come to my house, so I didn't have to spend $200 to terrify my pet for its last hours on earth.

[400 Grains]

I have a lot of respect for people who put down their own pets. I think it's incredibly kind to do that. I've had to kill several sick or injured chickens who were primarily pets (liked the eggs too, but our flock never got over 4 birds) and it's surprisingly hard. I think putting down a more normal pet like a dog or cat would be really difficult. Our vet makes house calls when it comes to euthanasia, so if that happens at least our mutts will be in the comfort of their own home. Still feels kind of like a cop-out, though, having somebody else do it.

If your pet is in a remote location, away from a vet, I can understand putting it down with a firearm if necessary.

The guys that just prefer to put a bullet in their dog's brain, rather than a quiet, peaceful injection, I have some reservations about. But then, I do consider my dogs family, and I'm not going to be shooting any other family members in the head by choice either.

I'll bite. I put several of my cats down with a suppressed 9mm. Why? I love my cats.

My cats hate the carrier. Even after being very used to it, being put in the carrier and driven a half-hour to the vet so sit around a bunch of strange animals in a place that smells wrong has got to be worse for them than if you or me were bound, gagged, and thrown in a trunk and driven into the Nevada desert. Every time, my cats knew that the carrier meant a nerve racking experience.

Or, I could take them outside (remember these are dying cats, they aren't in the mood to run off wild) give them some fish and some cool water, and pet them until the fell asleep next to me. Their last waking moments on earth were peaceful and enjoyable, and they never felt a thing.

Take it as your will, but I did the same to my collie when he got wrecked by a car. I sat there and rubbed his head for a minute, spoke softly to him, and put one through his brain stem so he didn't have to bleed out and suffer for 3-4 minutes in the street. Have whatever reservation you will. The vet might be an option if he would come to my house, so I didn't have to spend $200 to terrify my pet for its last hours on earth.

Chill Bud. I don't have any problems with the scenarios you described, (not that it matters anyway, they're your animals). Sounds like you did the right and kind thing. I had a couple of guys in mind, that I thought were a little too easy on the trigger with their dogs.

I've put down a bunch of deer, coyotes, raccoons, dogs, and a couple horses on the side of the road. And I'd do the same same for my own dog. But when they get cancer, etc., start shutting down, where quality of life sucks, and it's just time to say goodbye, I'm not blowing their brains out in the back yard if a less traumatic way is available. Just my preference. My wife and kids don't have to worry about me if they get sick either.......

And if your vet charges you, especially charges you two bills, for putting down an animal they've cared for during their life, you definitely have the wrong vet.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

I just figured I'd share my reasoning for doing it that way. There's a big difference between that and the way I put down an animal that wandered into the yard.

And yeah, the vet we use sucks, but he's the cheapest in the area. I think the bulk of the cost is underwritten as "disposal fees" which sucks, because I'm not allowed to bury them back home in their favorite spot.

EDITED because I'll throw what was here into an OT thread instead of derailing this one.

OT: Sometimes I use my rifle as a hat rack. With a VFG, it'll hang a hat and coat!

[Caenus]

I think an SD weapon is a bit of insurance. From a financial standpoint insurance is generally a gamble. For most people who determine they want a gun for SD, they are theorizing a certain set of factors will eventually be in play.

Example for those who will jump all over that statement from my own little world:

Dad was LEO for 30 years, constable for 15. Never shot anyone and only drew his gun a few times. Never carried when he was not working.

I've heard those kinds of Andy of Mayberry stories before, and never can wrap my brain around them. I only drew my gun a few times, most shifts.

I have no idea what it would be like to be a cop where there were no robbery or burglary calls, no felony warrants coming back on vehicle stops, no gangs, etc. I'd have been bored out of my mind.

Funny thing is...he was a cop in Phoenix...Arizona, let me specify south central Phoenix. Not Mayberry. 25 years on a beat, not at a desk. Some people are just too Clint Eastwood to fuck with and less Barney Fife. There may be a little confidence and "fuck you, if the VC couldn't kill me then take a shot douchebag" general policing competency/naïveté in there. What can I say, he's still alive despite going through a pair of eyeglasses every month due to some asshole taking a swing at him and breaking them.

I guess his generation was more willing to get in a scrap and get their uniform dirty than justifying a "good shoot". That and they were tougher than the guys they were arresting.

[Chirpy]

Well,

I'll throw a few more reasons into the mix.

Investment. I have several guns that accidentally doubled in value over the years. Overall, I've done much better with guns than stocks over the last decade or so.

Second, various polls say that 62% of Americans agree that semi-automatic weapons should be banned. 63 percent of Americans want a nationwide ban on assault weapons and a ban on high-capacity magazines. 26% still favor an outright ban on handguns although that is the lowest percentage ever. I feel it's my duty to own firearms just to counter the threat of possible legislation. The more sold, the more politicians will pause before losing votes. The contrarian in me just loves knowing it pisses somebody off every time I buy another gun.

Third, a legacy. My goal is that I can leave my son and daughter a full suite of firearms. Probably AR, 10-22, 12 ga., 9mm and a .357 wheel gun. Seems like a good mix, although it may change. I've got a few years to collect 'em (hopefully).

There's my non-standard reasons...

[Kutter_0311]

I guess his generation was more willing to get in a scrap and get their uniform dirty than justifying a "good shoot". That and they were tougher than the guys they were arresting.

Sadly, there's been a lot of changes in coppers and crooks over the last few decades, and none of it makes either side safer.

The general breakdown is that, yes, getting in a wrestling match at work may happen, but there are just too many ways that can go badly. For the sake of your family, you are often better off shooting a guy dead if you are justified. Who wants to bring home AIDS to the wife and kids?

[RepoMan73]

I think an SD weapon is a bit of insurance. From a financial standpoint insurance is generally a gamble. For most people who determine they want a gun for SD, they are theorizing a certain set of factors will eventually be in play.

Example for those who will jump all over that statement from my own little world:

Dad was LEO for 30 years, constable for 15. Never shot anyone and only drew his gun a few times. Never carried when he was not working.

I've heard those kinds of Andy of Mayberry stories before, and never can wrap my brain around them. I only drew my gun a few times, most shifts.

I have no idea what it would be like to be a cop where there were no robbery or burglary calls, no felony warrants coming back on vehicle stops, no gangs, etc. I'd have been bored out of my mind.

Funny thing is...he was a cop in Phoenix...Arizona, let me specify south central Phoenix. Not Mayberry. 25 years on a beat, not at a desk. Some people are just too Clint Eastwood to fuck with and less Barney Fife. There may be a little confidence and "fuck you, if the VC couldn't kill me then take a shot douchebag" general policing competency/naïveté in there. What can I say, he's still alive despite going through a pair of eyeglasses every month due to some asshole taking a swing at him and breaking them.

I guess his generation was more willing to get in a scrap and get their uniform dirty than justifying a "good shoot". That and they were tougher than the guys they were arresting.

A beat cop for 25 years that hardly ever drew his gun? Good for him I guess. I've rolled around in the mud with bad guys plenty of times but I also draw my gun when I'm dealing with suspected burglars in a house. I'm pretty sure cops in the 60s and 70s did the same thing.

[Caenus]

I guess his generation was more willing to get in a scrap and get their uniform dirty than justifying a "good shoot". That and they were tougher than the guys they were arresting.

Sadly, there's been a lot of changes in coppers and crooks over the last few decades, and none of it makes either side safer.

The general breakdown is that, yes, getting in a wrestling match at work may happen, but there are just too many ways that can go badly. For the sake of your family, you are often better off shooting a guy dead if you are justified. Who wants to bring home AIDS to the wife and kids?

Dad was a cop up until the mid 90's.

Who wants to kill someone simply because it's justifiable? I carry a gun everyday..but I also don't hide behind it. Some dude tells me to give them my wallet when I'm buying some smokes and a few beers I'll tell them to fuck off. They push the issue they get what's coming to them, but the gun is a last resort. I've killed plenty of people in Iraq and do not relish the idea of adding more debt to my conscience. I also realize that by carrying a gun I force that issue in the fact that it is on my person.

[400 Grains]

I think an SD weapon is a bit of insurance. From a financial standpoint insurance is generally a gamble. For most people who determine they want a gun for SD, they are theorizing a certain set of factors will eventually be in play.

Example for those who will jump all over that statement from my own little world:

Dad was LEO for 30 years, constable for 15. Never shot anyone and only drew his gun a few times. Never carried when he was not working.

I've heard those kinds of Andy of Mayberry stories before, and never can wrap my brain around them. I only drew my gun a few times, most shifts.

I have no idea what it would be like to be a cop where there were no robbery or burglary calls, no felony warrants coming back on vehicle stops, no gangs, etc. I'd have been bored out of my mind.

Funny thing is...he was a cop in Phoenix...Arizona, let me specify south central Phoenix. Not Mayberry. 25 years on a beat, not at a desk. Some people are just too Clint Eastwood to fuck with and less Barney Fife. There may be a little confidence and "fuck you, if the VC couldn't kill me then take a shot douchebag" general policing competency/naïveté in there. What can I say, he's still alive despite going through a pair of eyeglasses every month due to some asshole taking a swing at him and breaking them.

I guess his generation was more willing to get in a scrap and get their uniform dirty than justifying a "good shoot". That and they were tougher than the guys they were arresting.

I had several friends on Phoenix PD, and did some training there back in the early 80's. My recollection was that they got into a lot of shit too back in those days. If your Dad only "drew his weapon a few times in 30 years", I'm guessing it wasn't because he was so "tough". I'll have to ask Giles next time I see him if that sounds plausible.

The "I guess his generation was more willing to get in a scrap and get their uniform dirty than justifying a "good shoot" is pure bullshit. I'm likely close to your Dad's age group, and I probably could have dumped somebody justifiably once a week 30+ years ago. I got my uniform dirty just about every night, when I was working a beat car, and often it was my blood that soiled it. I also buried several of my friends who didn't draw their weapon when they should have.

[Kutter_0311]

Who wants to kill someone simply because it's justifiable?

I'm not saying anyone wants to, but given the choice of A) shoot a guy, or B) let this guy put me in the hospital, a wheelchair, or stick me with a needle, I think there are harder choices in life. Of course, the real decision is made by the guy who's there, based on his training and experience. If he reads a guy as a fight he can win, go hands-on. If something looks too hinky, play it safe.

I hope I never have to shoot anyone, but I try to be ready to, if that's what it takes to get through the day.