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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:04 pm 
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Your geometric placement of organs is immediately overridden by a boot to the head that leaves you dazed, if not unconscious, and game over.

The pros need to outweigh the cons for a move to be good. I've never done formal ECQC training, but in sports (wrestling being the most appropriate) and any other training I've had, deliberately giving up the 'high ground' or good footing was -never- a strategic option.

Yes, it's positive to train for many adverse positions, however, deliberately laying down in front of an attacker is just... it seems quite the list of cons, with a debatable positive result. That doesn't balance well to me. I'll remain open minded but I'm not seeing it yet.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:10 pm 
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gelgoog wrote:
I need to get with one of my instructors and make some vids of this (if he will allow it). I can only see it useful on a knife wielding bad guy who is very close and surprises you. It is not ideal, but it seems to work better than many other of the complicated drills to avoid a knife.


Yeah, you do that.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:15 pm 
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High line/low line block (like the Dog Brothers teach with the Dogcatcher) combined with aggressive forward movement and working towards tying up the knife arm or slinging the attacker off (preferably into a wall) is the best option I've ever worked. It's not perfect, and there's always the possibility that if your attacker is faster/stronger/meaner than you you'll still get sliced up. That's just what happens sometimes when someone comes after you with a blade; there is no 100% answer.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:41 pm 
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Any combination of knife/gun in a fight within 7-10 yards has a great potential for all participants to be severely injured. Your greatest asset is your awareness, the faster you pick up the threat - the better your chances of survival are.

Get off the X, move away diagonally trying to get as much distance as possible. Work on a fast draw. Work on firing as fast as possible, as accurately as possible. For me that is focusing on a high grip draw, closest to the bore as possible. Along with proper grip, and trigger control (reset).

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:50 pm 
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Murph wrote:
gelgoog wrote:
I need to get with one of my instructors and make some vids of this (if he will allow it). I can only see it useful on a knife wielding bad guy who is very close and surprises you. It is not ideal, but it seems to work better than many other of the complicated drills to avoid a knife.


Yeah, you do that.


That was helpful :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:54 pm 
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TDW586 wrote:
High line/low line block (like the Dog Brothers teach with the Dogcatcher) combined with aggressive forward movement and working towards tying up the knife arm or slinging the attacker off (preferably into a wall) is the best option I've ever worked. It's not perfect, and there's always the possibility that if your attacker is faster/stronger/meaner than you you'll still get sliced up. That's just what happens sometimes when someone comes after you with a blade; there is no 100% answer.

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the_alias and I also practiced a little Dogcatcher today... we found unless you start move into the "2 on 1" ASAP, it's at best a block that works a few times. Otherwise the attacker can change the line of the attack and get creative. Which equates to stabs. Which is suck.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:55 pm 
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gelgoog wrote:
Murph wrote:
gelgoog wrote:
I need to get with one of my instructors and make some vids of this (if he will allow it). I can only see it useful on a knife wielding bad guy who is very close and surprises you. It is not ideal, but it seems to work better than many other of the complicated drills to avoid a knife.


Yeah, you do that.


That was helpful :wink:


So is your lack of a video. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:03 pm 
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Murph wrote:
gelgoog wrote:
Murph wrote:
gelgoog wrote:
I need to get with one of my instructors and make some vids of this (if he will allow it). I can only see it useful on a knife wielding bad guy who is very close and surprises you. It is not ideal, but it seems to work better than many other of the complicated drills to avoid a knife.


Yeah, you do that.


That was helpful :wink:


So is your lack of a video. :wink:


lets see. Posted at 7 pm...its now 9pm. Damn I should of had a video up by now. :roll:

This is supposed to be a friendly discussion in which we can kick around ideas, not a dick waving contest.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:42 pm 
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Murph wrote:
TDW586 wrote:
High line/low line block (like the Dog Brothers teach with the Dogcatcher) combined with aggressive forward movement and working towards tying up the knife arm or slinging the attacker off (preferably into a wall) is the best option I've ever worked. It's not perfect, and there's always the possibility that if your attacker is faster/stronger/meaner than you you'll still get sliced up. That's just what happens sometimes when someone comes after you with a blade; there is no 100% answer.

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the_alias and I also practiced a little Dogcatcher today... we found unless you start move into the "2 on 1" ASAP, it's at best a block that works a few times. Otherwise the attacker can change the line of the attack and get creative. Which equates to stabs. Which is suck.


This is true, you've got to move from defensive to offensive as soon as possible, ideally getting that headbutt in, but most importantly getting 2 on 1 on that knife arm.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:52 pm 
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gelgoog wrote:
lets see. Posted at 7 pm...its now 9pm. Damn I should of had a video up by now. :roll:
This is supposed to be a friendly discussion in which we can kick around ideas, not a dick waving contest.


the_alias is on his way back to Europe, I'm sure it's on the list of his top priorities to upload it to youtube. :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:57 pm 
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There are some, 'fighting to your pistol' techniques which work well; most all of them include -fucking moving-.

To state the obvious, these situations are intensely variable.

For example, one of the techniques, is to throw whatever you have in your hands (such as car keys, a pen or a book or whatever) hard at the face of your attacker. When anything is thrown at our faces (especially our eyes), even something which won't induce much, if any, injury, we generally automatically react to it (even when wearing protective gear). This can offset the attack etc.

Anywho, there are many TTP's which can help offset the Tueller drill--it isn't a hard, fast, rule by any means.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:17 am 
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Throwing things in your opponent's face is something that's worked well for me in training...in one case, two "dead" Marines attempting to apprehend me as a role player. I was playing a drunk, disgruntled employee. I waited until they found me, argued loudly, then chucked a water bottle in the face of the one covering me when the other went for his OC spray.

From concealment in my belt, I had time to draw, aquire a sight picture on each face, and simulate firing twice to each head before they responded, despite the fact that they were had shotguns slung or in their hands. Throwing shit works quite well.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:56 am 
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Quote:
Throwing shit works quite well.


This. I've found that when I start flinging my shit around, nobody wants anything to do with me.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:37 am 
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gelgoog wrote:
I want to see someone running away at top speed trying to draw a pistol from concealment, especially a front pocket, shoulder holster, leg holster, fannypack and EDC bag.


Use those carry methods in training and you will find out really quick why those are not a good way to carry a pistol. There's a reason why we have serious holsters. Draw times from pocket or man purse are terrible, even with no one trying to stop you.

Most criminal assaults involve more than one bad guy. Shouldn't your training include the most likely scenario?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:50 am 
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The only hard, fats rule of CCW gunfights are that there are no hard, fast rules.

Supine shooting does not appeal to me, not does dropping on my arse at any point in a fight. The common solution seems to be to fuck trying to draw, and instead just focus on hand-to-hand combat.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:18 am 
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First off, you are not "running away at top speed," you are moving off line. There's a difference. Secondly, as phil pointed out, serious pistol users use serious holsters. Third, a lethal confrontation is quite different from range practice--yet that confrontation is what we should be training for to the best of our ability. Fourth, this "21 foot rule" has been around for a very, very, long time and has been debated ad nausea for just as long.

My last couple years as LEO training officer they were talking about extending the 21 to 31 feet. Truth of the matter is that encounters are going to happen when people are on top of you; not 21 feet away. Thankfully, most of the hostile encounters we're going to have are going to take place in the real world where there's a lot of junk laying around to get in peoples way; not a nice flat range. I had one guy pick up a coffee table a swing it at me. Moving behind the easy chair and a liberal dose of OC stopped that silliness. The best we can do is be prepared for the eventuality of force. Know your surroundings and how you can use them to your advantage. Getting stabbed is no fun, and if the person with the knife is any good at it (most people aren't, thankfully), you're going to get cut, and probably several times in a rapid fashion, but the when the rubber hits the road, it's what seat you decide to be in that matters; Are you going to be a driver or the passenger hoping that you don't die? By moving off line, and putting some kind of barrier between you and the attacker--if possible--and forcing them to react to you in some way; you can get some control of the situation. If you can keep your head and avoid getting sliced up around the face, a person with a firearm will come out on top; it takes a lot of stabbing and cutting to stop someone if they are determined to fight.

A lot of the problem with our training is that we always have the one shot rule; "one hit with a sim and you're dead; one stab with a knife and you're dead, one punch to the face and you're out." This is stupid training, and stupid rules. We should be training to shoot with sims until empty or someone gives up because they are tired of getting hit, we should be training to fight that knife until they are disarmed and stopped, and we should train to fight until someone taps out or is choked out. Just because someone runs at you with a knife and manages to cut you, the game is not over. If you are already moving and acting, you will have a better chance.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:37 am 
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I believe things that apply to fighting always apply to knife fights. VOA is important. Movement is paramount, moving off line is damn important, it makes your opponent react to you instead of reacting to the attacker.

I'm not liking the dog catcher. It's quite complicated and assumes the guys arm is trapped. It's not, if the attacker simply pulls his arm back you've moved your arms to the other side of your body and the attacker has an open shot.
My technique, others like it, if you don't, cool:
I teach/do block/strike the attack with forearms. IF you squared up on this attacker and the knife comes in, block/strike with your forearm against his fore arm as you angle yourself off at 45 degrees. The moment you make contact, you can either, throw a hard elbow to the head and step in, throw a hard knee to the soft mid section or just kick him in the balls. If the attacker cranks back again, do the same thing again. If the attack comes low, block low and step back at 45 degrees and use the same strikes. Other areas to strike are the throat, eyes, chest and bicep. A straight number 2 is also effective. From the videos I've seen of knife attacks is the attacker does not expect the defeneder to fight back and they do not use the unarmed arm for blocking. Basically, you have an open shot.
If the guy is stunned, dazed or relenting, it's up to you if you continue to strike. I'm of the opinion if someone comes at you with a knife, don't stop until the threat is down and the knife is out of his hands. Once you've "softened" the target and the strike comes in again AND you know the guy is worked, block the strike, go over the top of this arm at the bicep, snake under the arm and grab your own wrist. Turn your body towards the attacker. This will create a shoulder lock. If futher tenderizing is necessary, you have your legs to defend with.
This is on your judgement, at this point you can disable the arm by either pushing hard or dropping your weight. Or the better option, IMO, is to push very hard and toss the attacker to the ground and beat feet.
This is my technique, counter striking engages the attacker in the fight, this makes the fight a fight and not a stabbing. I'm not promoting fighting, I'm promoting defending yourself. There is no simple, fixed rules to fighting, you may have to defend yourself for 10 minute or you may knock the guy out on the first counter strike.
TL;DR or just don't give a fuck: Move, block, counter strike, move, block, counter strike, lather, rinse, repeat.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:58 am 
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Regular Guy wrote:
Once you've "softened" the target and the strike comes in again AND you know the guy is worked, block the strike, go over the top of this arm at the bicep, snake under the arm and grab your own wrist. Turn your body towards the attacker. This will create a shoulder lock.


Do you have a picture or video that illustrates this lock? I don't think I understand what you're describing. It sounds like a Figure-4, but I'm not sure. It sounds interesting.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:24 am 
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Murph wrote:
Regular Guy wrote:
Once you've "softened" the target and the strike comes in again AND you know the guy is worked, block the strike, go over the top of this arm at the bicep, snake under the arm and grab your own wrist. Turn your body towards the attacker. This will create a shoulder lock.


Do you have a picture or video that illustrates this lock? I don't think I understand what you're describing. It sounds like a Figure-4, but I'm not sure. It sounds interesting.


It's really simple. It's a standing kimura. It fits perfectly in with this defense. Once you block or grab the knife arm, go over the top of the bicep and grab your own wrist. I'm not saying try this off the giddy up, at all. You're going to have a few (or a lot) of shots in first and this is if the shots are working. This is the close in technique, if space is not an issue, stay out side and block the knife.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu6wm6975dY Ignore the collar grab and the knee blocking. Actually this is how we defend the knife on the ground. Stupid effective. We just do this to the knife weilding arm.
Sorry, found a better one, demo of a standing kimura: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WvSy1d8FhM

Another technique I like is to grab the arm, put my hand under the chin sweep the leg and give them a judo toss. Again, this is only AFTER block/striking and counter strike and the attacker is worn down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dygKP-25WLs
Again, this is all pending the strikes and block being effective.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:42 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WvSy1d8FhM
@ about 4 minutes is almost the exact technique I'm talking about. What we do different is we step in, block the strike and give an elbow strike but yeah, this except on the knife arm.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:24 am 
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Biggin wrote:
The only person I am flopping on my back for is my girlfriend.


In the most non-confrontational tone, I don't think anyone advocates going to your back. In many, many sparring matches in MMA I have found myself on my back. Very, very few matches have been standing all the way to the end. The shitty reality is that most fights end up on the ground, even our knife matches end up on the ground. If you find yourself there, you had better have practiced some way to fight there. Yes, staying on your feet is optimal but gravity and some goon attacking you may have different plans.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:51 am 
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Moved some random stupid bullshit to the random stupid bullshit thread. This is not the chat thread, and please try to stay on topic.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:04 am 
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When we defend the knife on the ground in the technqiue shown in this video, we DO control the head and we DO block the arm with the knee. The kimura ALWAYS goes on the knife hand. This is a good counter to an attacker on top of you attacking from the side. First, you stop the hand with the block/wrist grab. Next you control the head and block the arm with your knee. The attacker may be able to stab or slash but there isn't much force behind it because only the wrist can be used. Now, once you turn underneath and get the kimura don't let go of it until the attacker gives up and drops the knife. You may have to dislocate the shoulder and that sucks but so does getting stabbed while on your back.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:37 am 
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DannusMaximus wrote:
So...

My take away from this entire thread so far is that if a person with a knife decides to ambush you from close range you're going to get sliced to ribbons and there's pretty much not a damn thing you can do to stop it and survival will be a matter of blind luck or providence (if the person really, really wants to kill you, that is, which they must, or they wouldn't have just ambushed you at close range with a knife).

Pretty much cover it?


I think the point was 1) guns are not magical talismans that make you safe from "inferior" weapons like knives 2) you will likely need to know how to avoid and control an attacker's knife in order to gain time to draw your weapon. These may be things we all already "know," in general, but I enjoy reading about specific ways of accomplishing the second point.

I personally think that you'd be lucky to see a knife at 7 yards or further. I'm willing to bet most knife attacks take place at much closer ranges, and the would be knife attacker would prefer to get close first, then pull the knife, rather than show it to you from 21 feet away and charge at you. But, there will probably be other behavioral clues to their intentions. I don't think knife attacks occur out of the blue most of the time outside of prison shankings and other environment dependent situations. There will likely be some kind of indication that the person is angry or hostile, and they may close distance not by charging, but by slowly walking forward while engaging you in argument or conversation. So, learning to read people, de-escalate and extricate yourself from conflict situations apply as always.

Not trying to come off like I know what I'm talking about - I am far far from being any kind of expert on knife fighting, gunfighting, or any kind of self defense except verbal judo. I just don't think this thread preaches quite the fatalism you're reading into it.

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