Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot rule)

[Omega DR]

Interesting thread. First let me start by stating I'm not LEO and unfamiliar with the Tueller Drill. But, I have been in two actual knife fights in the last 20 years, so have some real world experience on the dynamics that take place. Well, in all honesty one was a real fight, the other was an attack by a really pissed off woman. In the later, I received the most injuries, collapsed lung and numerous defensive wounds to the arms, hands and chest.
Growing up in the VA/DC area in the 1970's, I witnessed numerous knife attacks as a youth. Most if not all, occurred with 3 to 6 ft; the combatants never wanted to telegraphs their attacks until the last minute. So the 21 ft rule is just a bit silly to me, anyone attacking with a knife from that distance is looking to get shot.
Those of you that worked in Corrections know, shank attacks occur quick, lighting fast, with little to no warning, in very confined spaces. My knife fight occurred in a German Movie theater bathroom, during an attempted robbery. It probably only lasted a few seconds by it seemed like hours. I was concentrated on maintaining control of his knife hand and NOT falling down. I still was cut numerous times on my hand and wrists. It ended when another person came into the bathroom and the crook ran out.
The problem with most of these drill is that they assume the knife fighter will just stand there while you shoot them. In reality, the knife fighter will usually use his free hand to grab hold, while he stabs with the other. Check out this video of a real knife attack.
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/802461/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ah_0gia4A0
In addition to very short engagement distance, the Knife fighter will also use distraction ( a coat thrown or feces, water, whatever) to their advantage. But, if you keep your head about you, you'll come out on top. Like this Store Owner against a knife wielding psycho.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaL2lnN-ciM

[Murph]

I still say, change the position of your holster. My bet is you are carrying it way to far back and moving it forward will shave a dot-second or two off your draw and fire times. Have you taken a formal class? If so, did they focus at all on proper draw from the holster and how much time was actually spent on it? It's the most basic, boring, and essential part of carry, and we never spend enough time developing a correct draw. Having someone there to critique your draw who knows what is going on is really a needed part of the whole training. Also, something that I do--you might as well--is I draw and sight at least ten times before I call it good for the day. And whenever I'm around the house with the pistol on, if I have a moment without embarrassing myself, I draw and sight. Daily practice makes for a smoother and hassle free draw.

Yes, I've taken formal classes. Yes, they covered draws. Yes, I do dry-fire practice.

I think that everyone here has said, "You're gonna get stabbed/cut." There is no way around it short of a really fast draw, a really accurate shot to the vitals/brain stem, and lots of good luck.

So, you are saying the answer is to quickly draw and shoot?

This is stuff we should all do more.

Agreed.

I'm also now looking forward to people telling us we weren't taking it seriously enough and that they are better on the draw than that blah blah blah and I run like a girl or something.

Yup, you called it bro. All we need to do is X, or is it Y? Wait, what about Z?

[doc66]

HAHA!

Quickly draw and shoot.

Sure, why not? And have luck and such as well.

Alias runs like a girl.

[the_alias]

Alias runs like a girl.

Ehh I'm not seeing people really do that Murph.
I think we all recognise it is a drill and one worth training. Your take away from it can be like doc66 to work out a better holster placement and draw or something towards what others are saying that it is worth working hands on knife defense.

Either way its sparked some debate and perhaps some re-evaluation of the threats of a knife.

[fourway]

Anybody posting in this thread (with the exception of doc66) ever actually seen a person who has been sliced up in an attack with a sharp object?

yes

*shudder*

^^^^^
this

You can Google all the images you want of a knife wound, but unless you've seen the results up close and personal I don't think you can really fathom what even an incompetent person can do with a knife (or broken bottle, or the lid of a tin can, or...). It's amazingly horrible.

Actually the thing nobody ever seems to expect their first time is the smell.

I think any training for a knife attack should simply involve pulling your EDC as quickly as possible and firing until you slide-lock. If dropping on your rump accomplishes that, happy day. If kicking the person's legs while they charge you accomplishes that, happy day. If backflipping over them while drawing duel nickel-plated long slide .45's accomplishes that, very happy day indeed.

eh.
stabbings happen in encounters with killers.
people get guns, knives, splitting malls, tire irons... all manner of deadly response out and ready in time to defend themselves and get killed anyway because they aren't killers.

in any case, killing someone is really never a happy day. even having had no choice. unless you are into that sort of thing.

Simply saying "You've got to be prepard to get cut" does a real disservice to how godawful (and rapidly fatal) these injuries can be. I personally wouldn't plan on being able to keep my shit together enough to pull any kind of complicated ninja moves on some attacker if I suddenly found myself staring at the bad guy over the spurting stumps of what used to my own fingers, but you may be more cool under pressure than I am.

strongly agree. no such thing as being prepared to get cut.

[Regular Guy]

Just talked with my coach. We have a knife defense class planned. Will be $50, 6 hrs and on a Saturday from 10-6, or whenever we're done. Lunch will be provided. We're meeting in two weeks to hash out date and course outline. Ill cross post this around the forum. Bring eye pro and gym clothes.
I have training knives, training guns and gloves to protect your hands. We also have strike pads to exercise at full force.

Expect to work hard.
NO MARTIAL ART SKILL NECESSARY. This will be at the North Springs Recreation Center in Columbia, SC.

[squinty]

Anybody posting in this thread (with the exception of doc66) ever actually seen a person who has been sliced up in an attack with a sharp object?

yes

*shudder*

^^^^^
this

You can Google all the images you want of a knife wound, but unless you've seen the results up close and personal I don't think you can really fathom what even an incompetent person can do with a knife (or broken bottle, or the lid of a tin can, or...). It's amazingly horrible.

Actually the thing nobody ever seems to expect their first time is the smell.

I think any training for a knife attack should simply involve pulling your EDC as quickly as possible and firing until you slide-lock. If dropping on your rump accomplishes that, happy day. If kicking the person's legs while they charge you accomplishes that, happy day. If backflipping over them while drawing duel nickel-plated long slide .45's accomplishes that, very happy day indeed.

eh.
stabbings happen in encounters with killers.
people get guns, knives, splitting malls, tire irons... all manner of deadly response out and ready in time to defend themselves and get killed anyway because they aren't killers.

in any case, killing someone is really never a happy day. even having had no choice. unless you are into that sort of thing.

Simply saying "You've got to be prepard to get cut" does a real disservice to how godawful (and rapidly fatal) these injuries can be. I personally wouldn't plan on being able to keep my shit together enough to pull any kind of complicated ninja moves on some attacker if I suddenly found myself staring at the bad guy over the spurting stumps of what used to my own fingers, but you may be more cool under pressure than I am.

strongly agree. no such thing as being prepared to get cut.

I find the thought of getting cut completely unacceptable. I will always endeavor, to the best of my ability, to not get cut. I hope that I will not be so paralyzed with dread at the prospect of getting cut that it inhibits my taking action - because that will get me cut. I hope that I will have enough self preservation instinct to continue to try and save myself even if I am injured by a sharp object, rather than giving up or freaking out so badly over getting cut that I stop resisting - because that will get me more cut. I would suggest that the phrase "prepare to get cut" is not intended to make people act like getting cut is an acceptable occurrence, but rather it's intended to 1) emphasize a serious attitude about the danger and difficulty of defending against a blade wielding attacker, even if you have a gun, and 2) suggest some of the mindset that will be necessary to prevail in such an encounter.

I think everyone in the thread agrees that, hoboy, getting cut isn't a good or acceptable event, and that a knife attack surely is grounds for using lethal force (to slide lock.) The devil is in the details: how do you effectively bring that force to bear when you are the defender, and thus starting out at a disadvantage - 'cause the attacker will always know about the attack before the defender, since he initiates the attack. Even if he has a knife and you have a gun, it will be hard to negate his advantage. People more knowledgeable than I have been arguing about how best to do that. It's been interesting.

WRT knife wounds being the harrowing stuff of really gross nightmares - I concur wholeheartedly.
WRT complicated ninja moves - I concur again. KISS. If it's complicated, it won't work.

[crypto]

Uh, thanks crypto? I'm well aware of the 4 point draw. I'm the one who pointed it out that's what I'm doing. Most of the time I was only able to hit the #2, but going to a full #4 would have put the gun right into the_alias' hands for a possible disarm.

What I saw in your video was you repeatedly fouling your draw stroke, then going directly to #3. Well, in the first video. In the second one it was just you yanking on your holster until you got stabbed. If that was a 4-point draw, you need to go ask for your training money back.

[crypto]

I could post some pictures illustrating the 4-point draw when I get home if theres any interest.

There is interest. But as for a "shove 'n' shoot," I thought that was the whole point of the thread - there needs to be a "shove" before you draw. Murph and Alias demonstrated the near futility of going straight to the draw, which I believe was their intent. Murph, as the defender, needed to "shove" - ie needed to somehow cope with the Alias' initial attack in such a way as to gain time to draw and shoot. At least, I thought that was the point. Am I gettin' it?

Yeah, I think you are getting it. My only reason for citing the 4-point draw is that you can shove with your support arm while you shoot with the gun up in retention.


Anyway, heres 4 quick pics the missus took of me doing the 4 point draw.






The important thing to note is that you can shoot from position 2.

[squinty]

I could post some pictures illustrating the 4-point draw when I get home if theres any interest.

There is interest. But as for a "shove 'n' shoot," I thought that was the whole point of the thread - there needs to be a "shove" before you draw. Murph and Alias demonstrated the near futility of going straight to the draw, which I believe was their intent. Murph, as the defender, needed to "shove" - ie needed to somehow cope with the Alias' initial attack in such a way as to gain time to draw and shoot. At least, I thought that was the point. Am I gettin' it?

Yeah, I think you are getting it. My only reason for citing the 4-point draw is that you can shove with your support arm while you shoot with the gun up in retention.


Anyway, heres 4 quick pics the missus took of me doing the 4 point draw.






The important thing to note is that you can shoot from position 2.

I have practiced shooting from a retention position. I have not had the nerve to practice a block/strike/shove while shooting from retention. Maybe while dry firing, or with an airsoft pistol if I had one. I am afraid I would Grebner my support hand if it was out in front of me touching my target.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Yeah so finally videos: I agree with someone (fourway?) who said it is a totally artificial drill and concept - yes it is. But we also wanted to just test it. Just myself sprinting at Murph with the knife out trying to stab him. Him trying to shoot me.
...
The flop to the ground yeah... Taint stab. Not gonna work! But it was funny to mess around with.

TAINT STAB!!




...that is all...

Huh. They used to teach a varient of "Taint Stab" in the old USMC A-Line hand-to-hand program, although it was as a stealth kill against sentries.

[Murph]

Uh, thanks crypto? I'm well aware of the 4 point draw. I'm the one who pointed it out that's what I'm doing. Most of the time I was only able to hit the #2, but going to a full #4 would have put the gun right into the_alias' hands for a possible disarm.

What I saw in your video was you repeatedly fouling your draw stroke, then going directly to #3. Well, in the first video. In the second one it was just you yanking on your holster until you got stabbed. If that was a 4-point draw, you need to go ask for your training money back.

I would beg to differ, from what your pictures look like, you might want your money back. Your #2 and #3 could use a lot of refinement. Just sayin...

[the_alias]

Drawing under real pressure is different to drawing for a photo demonstration.

But w.e I'm not involved in drawstroke debate or technique for obvious bloody reasons.

I will say I know I could still foul and grab the gun when it is in position two - though it will be more difficult. That other hand needs to be in play deflecting the mass of body and knife of the attacker.

It would be interesting to instead of running the DRILL to try get a full draw and fire to instead just try to establish into position two and using the off hand to deflect the attacker.

Any takers to go practice the drill with establishing the two and deflecting as the goal and report back or are ya'll gonna stay on the pot without shitting?

Anyone watch contact sports like rugby? Hand offs sometimes stop the tackle but not always. They do however often disrupt it.

[crypto]

edit: Upon further reflection I dont wish to post what I originally posted.


Before getting butt-hurt, Murph, take a good hard look at you in those videos, repeatedly unable to even get your gun out of the leather, and think about where the problem might lie, before you go criticizing posed positions.

[Murph]

edit: Upon further reflection I dont wish to post what I originally posted.
Before getting butt-hurt, Murph, take a good hard look at you in those videos, repeatedly unable to even get your gun out of the leather, and think about where the problem might lie, before you go criticizing posed positions.

Run 1

Gun is out, and at a properly indexed #2

Run 2

Again, gun is out, and at a properly indexed #2

Run 3

The pistol was drawn, but the_alias was in between the camera and me. This frame is from later after he spung me around... You can see I still have the pistol on my chest in a loose #2, because I had been stabbed a few times at the point, ending the drill.

Run 4

Gun's out. This run I did skip #2. Why? Well, I was busy falling on my ass.

So, the pistol was "out of the leather" every time, crypto. What was that about criticizing?

A good #2 nearly puts the pistol into your armpit (not on your belly), your shoulder will be tense, your arm goes straight back (it isn't chicken winged out to the side, or have a break in your wrist.) Your bicep should literally be touching your forearm. The pistol is angled downwards roughly 45 degrees. The rounds should be landing in the ground about an arms length away.

[bigmattdaddywack]

Well, we can not forget those crazy ass Moros and their sword/knives.

[phil_in_cs]

Well, we can not forget those crazy ass Moros and their sword/knives.

I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but people are trying to have a serious discussion. Do you have something relevant to add? The Chat Thread is elsewhere if you just need to type at your keyboard for a while.

[bigmattdaddywack]

Well, we can not forget those crazy ass Moros and their sword/knives.

I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but people are trying to have a serious discussion. Do you have something relevant to add? The Chat Thread is elsewhere if you just need to type at your keyboard for a while.

Do you have any fucking idea what I am talking about? We would shoot and mortally wound Moros in the Philippine insurrection but they would still kill US troops because they would still be able to attack after being wounded. They would die later but they still ended up killing US troops. I am being very fucking serious. Thank you very much. So what I am saying is you better be prepared to duke it out with other tactics and weapons after the mortally wounded individual (usually on drugs) closes the distance within striking range.

Certain individuals are addicted to very hard drugs or psyche drugs and by either withdrawal or extreme intoxication will not be able to be taken out without a serious hit to the CNC or severe, very severe, destruction to the muscles and bone that allow motor movement.. They become animals. I know this personally through experience.

[whisk.e.rebellion]

Well, we can not forget those crazy ass Moros and their sword/knives.

I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but people are trying to have a serious discussion. Do you have something relevant to add? The Chat Thread is elsewhere if you just need to type at your keyboard for a while.

Do you have any fucking idea what I am talking about? We would shoot and mortally wound Moros in the Philippine insurrection but they would still kill US troops because they would still be able to attack after being wounded. They would die later but they still ended up killing US troops. I am being very fucking serious. Thank you very much. So what I am saying is you better be prepared to duke it out with other tactics and weapons after the mortally wounded individual (usually on drugs) closes the distance within striking range.

Doesn't the legend of the .45ACP stem from the Moro Rebellion? I remember hearing stories about how the Moros would get hopped up on some kind of amphetamine or psychotropic, tie off their limbs to delay bleeding out, then continue to charge after being shot with light, high velocity rounds.

Anyway, bigmattdaddywack, your behavior in this thread is bordering on trolling. I'd advise you check yourself before you further wreck yourself.

[bigmattdaddywack]

I just posted after reading the OPs opening post. That was a mistake. I will back out to prevent further problems.

[UndeadInfidel]

HAHA!

Quickly draw and shoot.

Sure, why not? And have luck and such as well.

Alias runs like a girl.

I've been following what's been said in this thread, and all joking aside, it seems to be that it indeed comes down to having a well trained draw and point shooting ability. I've been instructed previously that a well trained point shooter should be able to execute two center mass shots from the time the pistol is unholstered to the time it's leveled and you have sight picture (at which time you should be immediately taking your third shot). All in one fluid motion.

Most of us (myself included) probably don't have the skills to accomplish this, especially under duress. I'd really like to find a suitable venue to be able to practice point shooting more.

[flsgear]

I'm digging all these knife-fighting threads

Initiative counts for a lot. It bears reiteration: The 21 foot rule wasn't even a hard and fast rule. It's a guideline, which if I recall was plucked out of thin air.

Here's a great article on the matter:
http://www.usadojo.com/articles/21-feet-valid.htm

Also yes, I've seen someone cut in front of me (high school, ~1996 - kid slashed ear to chin. Not pretty.). It happened very fast, within a very short distance. While it was fortunate the guy stopped after one slash, what was not fortunate was that after he fled the school grounds he then robbed the same kid (who was recovering at home) by stealing a TV. He then stabbed the mother who walked in on the theft something like 40 times, and the son who came down to help a few dozen times as well. Both, by some miracle, lived.

This really tempered my entire belief structure about knife work as everything I'd learned to that point was bad karate dojo crap with a guy 30 feet away with a rubber knife who lunges at you dramatically. I had/have a long time friend whom I met around that time who was supremely good with knives. Yet he'd taken no formal training. He was just a dirty fighter, intelligent and calculating who had an interest in knives from a young age. I used him as my benchmark for years and only recently feel I've equaled or surpassed him. And that's AFTER about 12-13 years of training, with the last 3 being heavily knife focused.

So I'll impart a few things I know and hopefully add value to this excellent thread.

1) Initiative matters. Just as the advantage goes to the ambusher in war, the same applies in a normal 'street' context. Being aware is the best thing you can do; this allows you to mitigate the 'early rush' advantage.

2) Watch out for people's friends. That same friend of mine has a cousin who was in a dispute over a girl (ex boyfriend came back with friends) and one of them stabbed him. He never felt it until after the fight was long over and he'd beaten them back. The knife missed his heart by several millimeters. This again goes towards the above.

3) Attack the knife hand. The first disarm I was taught and would teach (I really should start doing private instruction again ) was 'defanging the snake'. This is where you have your own weapon drawn and you simply slash at their wrist/hand/etc to cut tendons or limit their function with that hand. Not something I'd waste time doing with a firearm, but knife to knife, hand to knife, stick to knife? Absolutely.

4) Step forward and off angle. Triangular movement is king here. If you train it and time it, you can literally end up in a vastly superior position with minimal effort. Straight cardinal movement is not encouraged. This is because it's entirely too easy to simply adjust the knife's path to land a strike. So directly forward, backwards, left, right really don't help improve your position and will often reduce it. You can move backwards and off angle but it's not as advantageous in my experience as moving forward and off angle. This is specifically in relation to a committed attack.

5) The knife hand is the dangerous hand. While attention should be paid to the rest of the body, it's imperative not to lose focus of where the knife actually is (example - grip changes, hand changes, feints, etc).

6) If you can get a solid grip on their arm/wrist, go for a keylock/standing kimura. The two on one grip is a pretty solid way to take control of the knife.

7) Train. Then train some more. Then keep training. When your wife thinks you're crazy, your friends are tired of it... keep training.

There's so much more, but I guess that's good enough for now. These threads are making me want to go back and finish writing my beginner's guide to Arnis that I got about 70% complete a few years ago.

Oh one last thing. STAB is an awesome method. On the chance you get jumped and are already up sh*t creek with a knife sticking in you, what do you do? http://www.lowtechcombat.com/2011/03/st ... video.html

Side note: Knife wielding zombies pretty much tops my list of things I don't want to see in the ZPAW.

[Regular Guy]

Okay, I love history so I did research a bit about the Phillipine Insurrection. Prior to go the Army switched from the SAA 45 LC to the double action 38spl. They also ditched a lot of their sabres.
They went to the PI and found some Muslim fanatics who did indeed tie off their arms and legs. They also used Kali which is brutal knife fighting at close range. They were also targeting the officers in their charges. The rifle the troops had was adequate but the officers were given a new pistol which they were not used to which resulted in piss poor markmanship. Once the Moro warrior got close to the officer, it was a cut fest not in the officers favor. He lacked his sabre and only had his 38 spl and maybe a knife. A well trained knife fighter who has been practicing Kali his entire life vs a fresh officer given a pistol he never had time to adequately trained with, well, it didn't go in the officers favor.
So, once again, the army did not blame their training or lack of marksmanship, they blamed the gun. The officers hollered for a return the the 45LC. In steps J. Browning with a 45 automatic that worked, it was heaven.
Once the 1911 made it to the PI the insurrection was already waning because even though the officers were getting cut to ribbons the troopers were cutting the Moros to ribbons.

[flsgear]

Actually I'm pretty sure they were using 38 long colt Army revolvers during the moro rebellion.



http://www.chuckhawks.com/38LC.htm