Food's done, now to protect it... Questions

[ITZombie]

Okay, just getting into the sport of prepping. We've always been a buy on sale, store it and use it family. I was born po' folk. Saving money is ingrained. But in the last couple of months after some word of mouth encouragement we now have a years supply of food and water and the equipment necessary to prepare and ingest it. We'll be expanding that as time goes on to cover the close friends and family who can't prep to any great degree now.

That was the easy part. Now comes the harder one. How to make sure we keep it. So, I'm going to run my intended preparations past the hive mind of the zombie squad to see where I may be mistaken in my thoughts. Tell me if I'm on the right track or full of [bleep] or somewhere in the middle.

Background: There are 5 in our family, 2 adults and three children in the single digits. As a result I need to consider their abilities now and in the future. I don't foresee gun prices every taking a dramatic about face and going down in cost. My first rifle, an HK 91 cost me $500 NIB and I was young enough that I didn't know I could have gotten it cheaper. That's how far back I go.

So discounting the weapons I own now, an eclectic mix, I want to build a proper PA collection. A key need is duplicates of everything. I'm in enterprise level IT, redundancy is very important in my field and I can only imagine that if/when there are no stores for parts, it's even more critical.

Right now I'm considering the following for the family of 5 (remembering that 3 of us aren't yet 10) -

Glock 19 X 5
Remington 870 Tactical X 2
Ruger 10/22 Standard x 3
Ruger 10/22 Target Grade x 1
AR - 15 x 2

Each weapon will include a basics spare parts kit and obviously enough magazines to be useful. I figure 500 rounds of the centerfire for each weapon as a stockpile with several bricks of 22. I don't plan on getting into a war and the chances of surviving enough gun fights to actually use that much ammo borders on zero.

These would be supplemented by the existing mix of firearms but the above would be what gets packed in the car / holstered up first in the case of an event. The other weapons would be given out to unprepared friends and family who might show up.

My rationale on choices -

Glocks - Everyone and his dog has one which should make keeping them running easier. I'll be honest, when they first came I was OMFG that's an ugly gun and I still cringe when I look at them. But it's hard to argue with their track record. The 19's because even though I might find the G17 slightly better in feel personally, the 19 will work better for the wife and kids. And being able to grab any gun and go without having to re-learn even the slightest thing is a pretty strong factor. (no arguments about calibre please, I have my reasons for 9mm, right or wrong. )

Remington 870 family - Tried and true weapon, used them, like them. Willing to listen to arguments for a Mossberg or something else if you can convince me, great. Prefer pumps simply because there's is nothing quite as intimidating as the Schkkk, Schkkk of a pump action being worked and intimidation wins more fights than bullets. It's why I keep my SPAS-12 in pump mode. I like the sound.

Ruger 10/22 - Primarily for the kids for the next few years. Tried and true system. Used them, like them. Calibre is appropriate for training and hunting small game or worst case, dealing with feral mutts that are probably inevitable in a serious PA scenario. The target model is a splurge for myself. I enjoy long distance shooting, as defined by the calibre I'm using.

AR-15 - Here I'm a bit stuck on specifics. The AR-15 because much like the Glock, they're going to be ubiquitous in a PA situation so keeping one running is going to be easier. The AK is a fine rifle, just not a fan personally. My dilemna here is WHICH AR-15 to go with. I'm an accomplished tool jockey so building a couple wouldn't be an issue but I'd prefer a buy it and forget it weapon. Not opposed to kitting one out, just the amount of research involved, much of which appears to be personal experience/opinion on which uppers, lowers, triggers, barrels etc are 'the best' is off putting.

My key goals are

a) Duplicatiion and weapons that parts and accessories are available for now and afterwards.

b) reliability, the worst gun in the worlds that shoots is better than a gun you're going to end up throwing at Superman because it's broken (ever notice how S always ducked when the bad guy's gun broke or he ran out of bullets and threw it at Superman in the old TV shows?).

c) cost is a distant third. Like I told my wife, we can buy this mill for $200 which has plastic parts. Or this mill for $400 which is all steel/aluminum with forged grinding wheels. Is $200 worth trying to grind wheat between two cinderblocks? (end result is I bought them both, the good one is in storage, the cheap one is for 'eating what you store' now.

[ultra magnus]

First make sure you use that other mill a bit now to work out any kinks or issues if you have not already.

Looks like a pretty good list. What do you have in the way of 22 pistols currently? How early are you planning on teaching the kids to shoot? If you are going to start with them pretty young I think a 22 would end up being a better SD tool. The grip on the g19 is short but it's also fairly fat, and even a 9mm can be a bit much for some kids to shoot easily.

[jrswanson1]

I can't look since I'm at work, but a Palmetto State Armory complete rifle is about $600 and seems to be a great deal. If you want to drop $1000 you get the same rifle and an Aimpoint red dot.

Jim

[DarkAxel]

Here's a few guidelines that might help you figure things out:

1. If you don't have it now, don't plan on getting it post-SHTF. This applies to guns, ammo, and replacement parts. I'd up your round counts because eventually you'll be training those rug-runners to shoot, and training takes lots of ammo. I'd also try to have at least one full parts kit for each of those weapons, and extra firing pins, extractors, and other hard-working parts. The goal is to be completely self-sufficient for as long as possible.

2. The ARs. Building your own not only saves some dough, but it also familiarizes you with the rifle and it's working parts. Even if you buy your own, don't buy and forget. Figure out how it goes together and how all the parts work NOW. You don't want to have to find out later when you are stuck between a rock and a hard place. As to what brand to buy, everyone will have their own opinion and many will offer it to you with no hard facts to back it up. Do your own research on that regard, and look for facts.

3. Don't count on the sound of shucking a shotgun for deterrence. That's Hollywood bullshit for the most part. I used to be guilty of thinking that way myself, but I've reformed

[ITZombie]

@ ultra magnus

Currently Ruger 22/45, 4" and 5" are the only 22 hand guns I own. I like the feel of the grips more than the others so that's what I have. Been fond of the Ruger 22's since the Mark 2. Always go bull though. Bought as his and hers a couple of years back but I only count them for training purposes so they're not on the list.

Yes we did run a few cups of berries through it without any obvious issues then cleaned, oiled and stored in vacumn along with o2 absorbers and dessicants. 15 years from now I don't want to open that bag and find a mass of rust staring at me. Unsurprisingly, the pricey one is easier to turn and faster grind than the 'edc' mill. Also added the spare parts kit for it including another set of grinding wheels.

I was going to start teaching the kids now, good weather is right around the corner, hence the 10/22's. Long arms first to get good habits then hand guns.

@ jrswanson1

My limits around 1000-1200 (each) for the AR's so that's not out of the question. I'm not sure on optics, personally I'm better than many with iron but I can't say I would turn down options on a weapon either. I'll do some research on the PSA's. Reliability is a big factor obviously. I'd rather scream now at the price and eat mac n cheese for a year (and I despise mac n cheese) , than scream later because I have a broken rifle in my hands and no way to get parts.

@ DarkAxel

Agreed, a full parts kit for each weapon on the list and dupes for the 'things that tend to break first'. Another reason I want popular guns. Parts are usually cheaper due to volume. And having to buy for 5, I need all the help I can get.

Oh there's no problem with me taking them apart and putting them together. I've been dealing with Ruger 22 pistols for going on 3 decades, if there's a more PITA gun out there in terms of takedown, I don't want anything to do with it.

My concern is more along the lines of franksteining a weapon I'm going to be putting the lives of my family on and having to deal with various degrees of production quality from various manufactures. For example I see posts like "Use this company's upper, this one's lower, this bolt carrier" when the companies based on first glance make all those parts. What are they doing wrong with the other parts that only one piece of gear is considered good?

@ All

Appreciate your time to read and post very much. I honestly don't believe we're going to see an end game event any time soon. But I honestly don't believe we won't either. So a little bit of prep brings a lot of peace of mind and one less thing to worry about.

[VeniVidiVici]

http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=88577&start=24 <--- Good link for discussing the AR15 brands. Its got some good info but, it was locked because it turned into a "just as good as" full of flaming idiots with no argument. If you want "the best" get a SR-15 or Colt 6920. Just be aware of the fact that many guns will do the same things just as reliably as "the best."

I'm going to switch to a .308 after the election since it offer better penetration, long range capability, and is more useful on game animals. The XCR-M is looking like a beast based on the reviews from Canadian gun forums. I'll reserve judgment and recommendations until I compare it with an SR-25 EMC though.

[majorhavoc]

Can't help you with the gun question, but I justed wanted to step back and say kudos to you for getting your food preps squared away before focusing on one of the more sexy aspects of prepping: firearms.

Not to take away from anyone who does it the other way around, but there's a strong argument to be made for doing it in the order you have. Just wanted to recognize that.

[Maverick299]

Not sure where you are located or if you plan on ever having to do any hunting to supplement your food stores. If so I would add at least one, long range, scoped rifle to the mix. Any of the .30 cal rifles would be more than sufficient for taking deer and larger sized game, with the .308 being a good choice because of ammo popularity and availability. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, a Savage bolt action is cheap, reliable, and accurate. You can hunt with the AR's for larger game, but it sure wouldn't be my first choice.

[BigDaddyTX]

RE:AR15, there is an entire thread devoted to it, and it isn't locked. I recommend it for information and questions.

viewtopic.php?f=109&t=60336

I wouldn't start at the beginning though, there is a ton of redundant information, although being in IT, maybe you'd like it. Read the last 5-10 pages, then ask your question. Some things are hard to find like buffer weights, but as far as lowers and uppers go, there should be plenty of recommendations in the last 10 pages. The PSA with the Aimpoint PRO is what I would buy if I had to do it over again. You can upgrade the furniture later and cheaply with Magpul stuff or the sky is the limit with freefloat rails and accessories.

Fake Edit: I agree with the above poster, you could use something that'll reach out and touch someone, but also take large game. You can kill everything in the CONUS with a .22 apparently, but I wouldn't want to count on it.

[HKTackDriver]

Here's a few guidelines that might help you figure things out:

1. If you don't have it now, don't plan on getting it post-SHTF. This applies to guns, ammo, and replacement parts. I'd up your round counts because eventually you'll be training those rug-runners to shoot, and training takes lots of ammo. I'd also try to have at least one full parts kit for each of those weapons, and extra firing pins, extractors, and other hard-working parts. The goal is to be completely self-sufficient for as long as possible.

2. The ARs. Building your own not only saves some dough, but it also familiarizes you with the rifle and it's working parts. Even if you buy your own, don't buy and forget. Figure out how it goes together and how all the parts work NOW. You don't want to have to find out later when you are stuck between a rock and a hard place. As to what brand to buy, everyone will have their own opinion and many will offer it to you with no hard facts to back it up. Do your own research on that regard, and look for facts.

3. Don't count on the sound of shucking a shotgun for deterrence. That's Hollywood bullshit for the most part. I used to be guilty of thinking that way myself, but I've reformed

I couldn't have stated it better myself. I would also encourage you to get ammo regardless of whether you currently own the gun. Remember, people will run out of bullets before the actual gun. You may be able to turn copper and brass into a gun relatively easily. Then be able to use it with what you didn't trade. Remember that guns also take magazines, so stock up on those as well. Think high quality polymer so you don't have to deal with bending aluminum mags.

If you're serious about the guns, go for the AR15's and related parts NOW! The 2012 election is coming and there will surely be another run on SAW guns and parts. On average, when you could find AR15's in Nov/Dec 2008, they were $400+++ more than regularly priced. Magazines? Forget it. Ammo? Not to be found.

Over night, my local store was completely sold out of ammo for major calibers - 223, 308, 3006, 30-30, 45acp, 9mm, 40S&W, 38/357. Oddly, my favorite 5.7x28 was found and I grabbed all of it! But I digress - get the AR's ASAP.

[ITZombie]

@VeniVidiVici I do like a good .308, my first gun was a HK91 in 308. Truly sorry I was forced to sell it back in the day. Bought it for 500, sold it for 1800, great investment. Being young and stupid I'd go shoot metal plate I picked up somewhere with it. I loved how it punched holes straight through and this was some thick, albeit mild steel. I stopped doing that the one time I happened to use a piece of metal that was in a T shape. I put a round right at the top of the T where they were welded together and the metal cupped and molten lead and copper did a 360 on me and left a line of pain up my forearm. If it had been 6" up and to the right I'd probably be missing an eye right now. (young and stupid means no eye protection).

@majorhavoc Personally, and no offense to anyone doing it a different way, I wanted to make sure I was not one of the inevtible people after a PA event armed but without food who had to choose between doing what was 'right' and doing whatever they had to do to feed their children. But I'm also going to make sure that help such a group gets from me is by my choice, not theirs.

@Maverick299 Midwest, we rarely have a shot over a 100 yards. I don't go out very often any more. It's either getting colder in November or I'm getting older or both. But I do have a model 94 around here somewhere that hits whatever I point it at within reason.

@BigDaddyTx I have 'a' hunting rifle but perhaps something newer might be in order. While I suppose you could kill anything with a 22, I surely wouldn't want to stake my life on it. Although honestly hunting to feed even a greatly reduced population would be a matter of luck than anything else. At least around here. I plan on looking at rabbits long term. I understand their grass to meat ratio is near the top of the chart and they don't take nearly as long to produce since they breed like... well you know.

@HKTackDriver Excellent point. I didn't even consider ammo in varities that I wouldn't shoot. A few boxes of 45 and 40 could become not only ammo for whatever anyone else shows up with but I can't not see it becoming quite valuable just as a commodity. Thanks, something else I need to find room in the rapidly shrinking budget for. I do remember the ammo panic from a couple (3?) years back. Oddly it was some cities around here a lot more harder hit than others.

To all - May I say I'm more than a little surprised by the quality of this forum. Doing what I do, I deal with the online society a lot and frankly the vocal minority in many areas leaves a little something to be desired but in general I've been quite surprised, pleasently so, by the majority of people on these forums. I was steered here by a friend who's been getting ready for potentials for awhile and I guess I owe him a beer now.

[PistolPete]

Why do you think a Glock 19 would work better for your wife and kids? A G19 has the same grip radius as a 17, and a 17 or 34 is going to offer both a longer sight radius and less recoil while adding barely any weight. I work with a lot of new shooters, and almost hands down they shoot full size pistols better than smaller ones.

Since most of the parts interchange having a couple 19's and a couple 17's or 34's may suit you equally well or better than 5 19's.

Just my .02.

[Vicarious_Lee]

Why do you think a Glock 19 would work better for your wife and kids? A G19 has the same grip radius as a 17, and a 17 or 34 is going to offer both a longer sight radius and less recoil while adding barely any weight. I work with a lot of new shooters, and almost hands down they shoot full size pistols better than smaller ones.

Since most of the parts interchange having a couple 19's and a couple 17's or 34's may suit you equally well or better than 5 19's.

Just my .02.

Really? I could've sworn the 19 was smaller. In fact, my father-in-law was all set to get a 19 but he got the 17 because the grip fit his hand better. That'd be a weird placebo effect if that's the case.

[hatchtrikk]

The grip on the 17 is longer than the 19. I know this because AKFTW chopped the grip on his 17 to flush fit 19 mags. Pretty sure, anyway.


OP, for ARs, it's hard to go wrong with a Colt 6920, Bravocompany or PalmettoStateArmory.

If you are even giving the smallest consideration to the AK, here's the AK thread: viewtopic.php?f=109&t=73744

As far as AKs go, Russian SGL-21(7.62x39) or SGL-31(5.45x39) or Bulgarian SLRs. Cream of the crop, those are.


Good luck

[ITZombie]

@PistolPete I'm going based on recommendation from a friend who owns four of them and has owned 17's and others. He (smaller hands) and his wife and children use them and apparently the 19 works better for them. They both carry as well and like apparently 9 out of 10 glock users they swear the 19 conceals better. And as I have every intention of trying to group with them if something does happen, it increases redundancy. To some extent at least, theirs are Gen 3's which from what I understand aren't no longer compatible with the Gen 4's. So that's another decision I need to make, go with G3's and add the minimum upgrades or go with G4's. It's always a PITA when a manufacturer breaks backwards compatibility whether it's computers or handguns.

I'm perfectly willing to entertain other opinions. That's why I posted this thread after all. It'll probably be another 2 to 3 months or so before hand guns hit the top of the budget, the 10/22's are a bigger priority due to training needs and the kids are not going to be up to larger calibres for a number of years. After those then the 12 gauges for their overall ability to multi-task (I'm a fan of Alton Brown, single taskers are to be frowned at) .

Just to be clear as well so you don't think I'm the type to buy a pig in a poke, I'm going to actually shoot a box or two out of the 19 by dragging him to the range with me and see how it handles and how accurate these big ol' ham fists of mine find it. Finding a 17 to actually shoot may take some more doing.

@Vicarious_Lee the 19's just shorter, the grip is the same otherwise. 19 mags fit in the 17 (or would if you cut it down which some people do, I've seen'em on here) and 17's fit in the 19.

@hatchtrikk that's two suggestions to look at the palmetto arms. I've got to find more time to do more research. I'm not against the AK for what you'd call valid reasons, mechanically they're a brick and then some (as in hard to ef up), it's just personal tastes. I grew up when Russians were evil son's a bitches who were going to drop the bomb on us and nukes back to the stone age and what we learn as kids sticks with us our whole lives. I know a whole lot o' folks love them though, and with good reason from what I know about them intellectually. It's a good incentive to add x39 ammo at least to the safe. And maybe a rifle or two at the tail end of the guns list once everything else is in place and I'm just filling in the cracks. "there's always room for dessert/aks?"

[BHP]

I'd give some thought to the .22lr ARs over the 10/22. I am a fan of them but if your fighting gun is going to be an AR this will support proper training. Most importantly though is that the adjustable length of pull stock will allow the kids to fit the gun to their size as they grow. There will be no need to cut the stock down to fit them now or force them to use too long a stock. Cut it now for proper fit fit and six months from now it may be too short.

Just a thought.

[ITZombie]

@BHP Great point, I was actually looking at the Palmetto website last night and saw they had 22 LR conversions, a bit pricey but it would do exactly as you suggest, weapon familiarity from day one to day zero. There's a lot to be said for muscle memory when stress and adrenaline are flaring.

That would though require me to purchase the AR's up front and the 22LR kits. Life just keeps getting more complicated. I should buy a lottery ticket or something which would solve my decision problem for me. With the minor roadblock that it would have to be a winning ticket.

[DarkAxel]

OP, I wouldn't exactly go for a .22lr conversion. I'd go for a full .22lr AR rifle like the S&W M&P 15/22 or complete .22lr uppers, especially if you want your .22lr to be a game getter as well as a training analog. Conversion kits are great for fundamentals training, not so much for marksmanship training.

[jeremy1391]

OP instead of AR15's I plan on arming my family with AK74's namely because ammo is still dirt cheap. And for your budget each you can find a nice example of the 74, such as the M10 5.45 or an IAC and about ten mags for about 17 bucks a piece and 2 cases of 1080 rounds for about $280 so for about $1050 you can have a good rifle, ten mags and 2160 rounds.
Also the 74 has less recoil then its older brother the 47.

So if you can get past your dislike of the platform you can have a decent dependable rifle with a good starter cache of mags and ammo for the price of your rifle only budget.

[BHP]

Yeah, as was mentioned I wouldn't go with the .22 kits as was mentioned. The twist rate for most .22s is 1 in 16 and not the 1 in 7 of most ARs. Plus with the conversion kits the bullet has to jump a few inches before it gets to the rifling anyway. As was mentioned, okay for weapon handling training but not so great for marksmanship. Go with the S&W or a dedicated upper.

[ITZombie]

@DarkAxel & BHP then perhaps the S&W15 and the S&W15/22 would be a recommended combo for training purposes? Or at least close enough?

@jeremy1391 I don't argue the value and mechanics of the ak family at all. I'm actually considering, based on posts here about adding a couple of the AK family (at the tail end of the budget list though). If nothing else they'd provide weapons for guests or could be used as a commodity. I do appreciate the larger calibre of the ak over an ar. A larger ability to multi-task as it were.

[huntingohio]

I highly highly suggest getting a handgun for every member of the family, as they are the only type of gun that can be concealed, and if the world gone sideways on you, it may be prudent not to be seen carrying a firearm.
I would suggest just one or two .22 rifles
If you want shotguns look at the mossberg 500, they can be had at gunshows used for 175 or less. I suggest this because i believe everyone in your family should have one. They are much easier to hit with than a rifle or handgun in a situation where adrenaline and stress are thrown in.
For a carbine you can pick your flavor there I dont see a real use for them if your bugging in and wouldnt want to be seen with one bugging out

[DarkAxel]

@DarkAxel & BHP then perhaps the S&W15 and the S&W15/22 would be a recommended combo for training purposes? Or at least close enough?

If you wanted to go that route, then yeah. I can't vouch for the quality or lack thereof WRT the .223/.5.56 M&P, but the 15/22 is solid IMHO. It's a bit lighter than the standard AR, so that might be another plus for the kiddies.

[duodecima]

@majorhavoc Personally, and no offense to anyone doing it a different way, I wanted to make sure I was not one of the inevtible people after a PA event armed but without food who had to choose between doing what was 'right' and doing whatever they had to do to feed their children. But I'm also going to make sure that help such a group gets from me is by my choice, not theirs.

This. I am some months behind you on the same (I hope!) trajectory. I will keep watching this thread with great interest, for when my budget gets to this point.

@HKTackDriver Excellent point. I didn't even consider ammo in varities that I wouldn't shoot. A few boxes of 45 and 40 could become not only ammo for whatever anyone else shows up with but I can't not see it becoming quite valuable just as a commodity. Thanks, something else I need to find room in the rapidly shrinking budget for. I do remember the ammo panic from a couple (3?) years back. Oddly it was some cities around here a lot more harder hit than others.

HK - I will also be taking your suggestion, it is excellent.