It is currently Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:34 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:45 am 
Offline
* * *
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:03 am
Posts: 539
Location: Blacksburg VA
I got to thinking yesterday as I got dressed. In honor of the day, I was wearing a green Boondock Saints t-shirt.

It occurred to me that having to use my CCW while wearing a shirt celebrating a movie about vigilantes could cause some problems.

It also seems I could have the same problems with my shirt with the Punisher skull, or even the Batman Symbol.

I personally don't think it would cause damage by itself, but I believe it could be the "Straw that Broke the Camel's Back" in certain situations, particularly in civil cases.

For instance if I shoot and kill a teen mugger in a dark street, and it turns out the gun was a black painted airsoft or something. I could see a lawyer try to paint me as a wannabe just praying for the chance to emulate my heros and kill a criminal.

So am I thinking too much into this, or is it a possiblity to be aware of?

And I won't stop wearing the shirts, nor do I intend to not carry if I do wear one. I mean, I always feel a tiny bit sacrilegious strapping on a gun when wearing the Batman shirt, but that doesn't stop me doing so.

_________________
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:50 am 
Offline
BANNED
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:22 pm
Posts: 9407
Location: Lafayette, LA
I think people are too paranoid if they think that crap actually makes it into the courtroom, or if it does, that it, at all, affects the judge/jury very much.

Law is law. I think the laws on murder versus justifiable homicide in self defense are pretty clear on what qualifies as self defense, and it doesn't matter if you enjoyed killing him or not. You had reason to fear for your life or you did not. Doesn't matter if you enjoyed the killing, so a lawyer painting you as a psycho doesn't matter.

Now, the New York Times and CNN and every other media reporter out there may drag you over coals to cause commotion, but they aren't your jurors or judge. Fuck what they have to say.

_________________
gravediggerfour wrote:
If you don’t know what your talking about don’t lead people, especially new people, astray.

I survived ZCon7, 2011
I survived ZCon8, 2012


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:54 am 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 10:11 am
Posts: 2769
Location: North Carolina
I believe it could be damaging, depending on what happened and anything that "witnesses" report. One of the main things is dont be open with comments ask for a lawyer immediately.
Be very cooperative but keep your mouth shut. If it comes up in court your a movie fan, explain you also have Transformer shirts, Tom and Jerry shirts, Hello Kitty shirts, whatever.

So basically the shirt alone, no. Shirt plus comments from you that are or can be twisted to be disparaging, possibly.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:59 am 
Offline
* * *
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:03 am
Posts: 539
Location: Blacksburg VA
JamesCannon wrote:
I think people are too paranoid if they think that crap actually makes it into the courtroom, or if it does, that it, at all, affects the judge/jury very much.

Law is law. I think the laws on murder versus justifiable homicide in self defense are pretty clear on what qualifies as self defense, and it doesn't matter if you enjoyed killing him or not. You had reason to fear for your life or you did not. Doesn't matter if you enjoyed the killing, so a lawyer painting you as a psycho doesn't matter.

Now, the New York Times and CNN and every other media reporter out there may drag you over coals to cause commotion, but they aren't your jurors or judge. Fuck what they have to say.


I agree with you for Criminal Cases, but unfortunately it's a bit different when it comes to civil cases.

_________________
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:01 am 
Offline
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:32 pm
Posts: 1731
Location: NW of San Jose... in the land of the Hell Mouth
I don't think it will effect the Criminal courts, but it could effect the Civil ones. You will most likely be found innocent if you shot in self-defence. However, that persons family could sue you and I guarentee you that their ambulance chasing Lawyer would use every trick in the book to make you look like a horrible person out for blood. Including what you were wearing, the video games you play, the movies you watch and possibly even your affiliation to forums like this one. "ZOMG! He reads about killing Zombies!!!!". Of course these same things would apply to the guy in a suit who shoots a mugger in self-defence, so clothing isn't really that much of a problem as how much "evil" they can throw at you and make stick.

Is this paranoid? Yes... but enough people have been sued for wrongful death and lost everything they owned because of these tricks. Wear what you want to wear, but make sure you fully understand the consequences of your actions.

_________________
raptor wrote:
Anyone know if there is an asshat gene? If so it must be a dominant gene.

Image Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:12 am 
Offline
BANNED
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:22 pm
Posts: 9407
Location: Lafayette, LA
rburch wrote:
JamesCannon wrote:
I think people are too paranoid if they think that crap actually makes it into the courtroom, or if it does, that it, at all, affects the judge/jury very much.

Law is law. I think the laws on murder versus justifiable homicide in self defense are pretty clear on what qualifies as self defense, and it doesn't matter if you enjoyed killing him or not. You had reason to fear for your life or you did not. Doesn't matter if you enjoyed the killing, so a lawyer painting you as a psycho doesn't matter.

Now, the New York Times and CNN and every other media reporter out there may drag you over coals to cause commotion, but they aren't your jurors or judge. Fuck what they have to say.


I agree with you for Criminal Cases, but unfortunately it's a bit different when it comes to civil cases.


That's true, I was pretty much focused on a criminal court.

I'm often surprised and unfamiliar with the trend in civil courts... I don't understand how some of that shit flies in a free world of due process, so I can't say what'd happen.

_________________
gravediggerfour wrote:
If you don’t know what your talking about don’t lead people, especially new people, astray.

I survived ZCon7, 2011
I survived ZCon8, 2012


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:53 pm 
Offline
* * * *
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:24 am
Posts: 964
Location: Beaufort, SC
Wear one of these when you're packing:
Image

_________________
Never trust a corpse.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:32 pm 
Offline
* * *
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:51 pm
Posts: 669
Image

Sooo, you're saying that this might not be the best idea to put on a t-shirt?

_________________
JamesCannon wrote:
I think he's also forgotten more about spelling and grammar than ... well it just seems he's forgotten a lot about it.

DannusMaximus wrote:
Few things are more win than saving the day with something that other people think you're weird for hauling around. 8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:41 pm 
Offline
* * *
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:09 pm
Posts: 462
Location: Wichita, Ks
I don't have any vigilante shirts, but I almost bought a set of Punisher grips for my 1911, which is my usual CCW, but then I thought, naaww...

_________________
Ignorance is a self-inflicted wound - Bluesman

KC0KSV Extra Class

Group Think = No Think


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:08 pm 
Offline
ZS Member
ZS Member

Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:00 pm
Posts: 1794
Location: Indiana, USA
I don't have that problem...personally I think t-shirts are underwear and wouldn't be caught dead wearing underwear out in public. I do wear my LFI/Aslet/NRA/etc. polos outside however.

_________________
"I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend." -- J.R.R.Tolkien

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:10 pm 
Offline
BANNED
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:22 pm
Posts: 9407
Location: Lafayette, LA
Absintheur wrote:
I don't have that problem...personally I think t-shirts are underwear and wouldn't be caught dead wearing underwear out in public. I do wear my LFI/Aslet/NRA/etc. polos outside however.


So you go commando when you leave the house. Duly noted...

:wink:

_________________
gravediggerfour wrote:
If you don’t know what your talking about don’t lead people, especially new people, astray.

I survived ZCon7, 2011
I survived ZCon8, 2012


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:17 pm 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:47 am
Posts: 4374
Location: Texas
I remember reading in a Massad Ayoob article one time where a secuirty guard was given a 'Killings my business and business is fine' t-shirt by a relative and that's what he happened to be wearing when he was forced to defend himself with a firearm.

I don't remember all the details as I read the article a long time ago in American Handgunner, but I remember that it DID make it into the criminal proceedings (the D.A. argued that it spoke to what his mindset was and what kind of a man he was and the Judge agreed with him) and that the security guard had something happen to him (I just don't remember exactly what). I'll see if I can find the article.

So what you wear and how you present yourself DOES play a factor in how the LEO's, the District Attorney, Judge and Jury look at you.

For instance if you were dressed in Doc Martens, had a shaved head and a bunch of tattoos and you were forced to kill a mugger/robber that just happened to be a Black guy then don't be suprised if the media and the district attorney tries to say that there was a racial motivation behind 'The Murder' even if race played no part in it whatsoever.

See my point? :shrug:

_________________
If you read my posts with more of a "Just saying..." or "I don't really care, but..." then that's more the true tone in which they are intended.

"Cynicism is my armor, sarcasm my sword and apathy my shield."


Last edited by Browning 35 on Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:18 pm 
Offline
ZS Donor
ZS Donor

Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:34 pm
Posts: 355
Why give either the police or a civil attorney ammunition?

I don't wear "message" tshirts for the same reason attorney's advise their clients to not talk to the police if they're being questioned about committing a crime, let them make their own case, why help them? The grey man theory works in a lot of ways.

Overthought? Maybe, but then again maybe not... :wink:

_________________
John E
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life:The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:59 pm 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:56 pm
Posts: 4043
Location: Central Ohio
I have been thinking along these lines lately. I typically wear "operator" pants. LA Police gear has sales and I often will buy 2-3 pairs at a time. I wear them for no other reason than they are priced right, have plenty of pockets for EDC, reinforced knees, etc. They're work pants for me.

But if there was an incident, and I was wearing 5.11's and carrying a SF ED2, tactical knife, and a gun I wonder how much of a deal it would be?

_________________
WWSD?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:29 pm 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:59 pm
Posts: 3012
Location: A Fortified Location Near Ft. Campbell KY
You never really know what a jury is going to believe, but if that stuff came up in a trial I was sitting in the jury on, it gets instantly marginalized. For me, seeing through the BS is easy; the facts of the case make it easy. I sat at on least six juries last time I was called (JD here lasts four months and is a "call in to see if you're needed" kinda thing), and seeing through the smoke and mirrors was pretty easy for the majority of the jury members. A couple were dumb as posts, but the Bell Curve applies everywhere. for it to come up in a case, somebody would have to make note of it, and chances of that aren't all that overwhelming, either. I'm just gonna continue to go about my binnis, wearin' what I gots.

_________________
I don't carry a gun in case I get in a gun fight. I carry a gun because I don't want to miss the opportunity to get in a gun fight. - Officer Timmy

http://www.atstacticalgear.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:31 pm 
Offline
* * *
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:37 am
Posts: 762
Location: FT Hood, TX
Paladin: I would say most people would expect some carrying concealed to be prepared for other situations as well. A flashlight and a pocket knife are no surprise; that said, "evil black gun"-ish gear, like tactical knives, wouldn't sit as well as a multitool or swiss army knife/boy scout knife.

To most people, solid-color tac pants look like cargo pants with some fancier stitching. Camouflage is a different issue.

_________________
An armed man is a citizen; an unarmed man is a subject............ Do not go gentle.
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:09 pm 
Offline
* * *

Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:12 pm
Posts: 481
Location: UNSEEN IN ALL THE RIGHT PLACES ...
JamesCannon wrote:
Absintheur wrote:
I don't have that problem...personally I think t-shirts are underwear and wouldn't be caught dead wearing underwear out in public. I do wear my LFI/Aslet/NRA/etc. polos outside however.


So you go commando when you leave the house. Duly noted...
:wink:


Well, I guess another way to look at this is:

Plan A: Do you want to go about your daily business as a ZSer/preparedness-minded/warrior-mindset person but in a low-profile manner, ... or ...

Plan B: Do you want to go about your daily business as an in-your-face/wear-it-on-your-chest/proselytize-your-life style/telegraph-your-intentions sort of person?

Plan A is what experienced survivalists advocate, like Ragnar Benson and several others, who've "been-there-and-done-that" all over the world. They've lived long enough to write very good and useful books on these issues.

Plan B is for Mall Ninjas and fourteen-year-olds. :roll:

Remember: low-profile has virtually no down-sides to it, mainly because you look like everybody else.

Yeah, you know you're different, but to anyone looking at you when you're out and about, you blend in - you fit in. Your appearance doesn't raise anxieties or suspicions even though you aren't what you appear to be.

Think of the concept this way: hidden in plain sight. Get it?

You can still have what we discuss on this board (that warrior/preparedness mind-set, etc.), and you can train hard and keep your skill-set intact, and you can still do everything you need to do and remain below the radar.

But if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time and the Bad Guy chooses you to fuck with, and you're forced to kill him in lawful self-defense, ... well, then when the smoke clears and you're standing over his dead-ass corpse, you'll look like anybody else who was forced to act in self-defense.

Just my two cents ... 8)

_________________
I don't usually listen to Nickelback, but when I do I prefer this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxgeSv88 ... re=channel

MOLON LABE
It's a Spartan thing ... You wouldn't understand.
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:44 pm 
Offline
ZS Member
ZS Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:34 pm
Posts: 190
Location: Wilmington, DE
rburch wrote:
I got to thinking yesterday as I got dressed. In honor of the day, I was wearing a green Boondock Saints t-shirt.

It occurred to me that having to use my CCW while wearing a shirt celebrating a movie about vigilantes could cause some problems.


Short answer- yes.

You see a guy with tatical pants on, a punisher shirt, and tatical/combat boots on while rocking libery spikes. Honest impression? Now be informed he is armed with an "evil black gun". Pretty easy to paint him as someone with a certain mindset. And that guys fate is now being decided by folks whos only impression is what is being told to them by an attorney.

I'd rather "prep" myself by being joe average. However it's pretty easy for me, as I routinely get mistaken for a cop.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:55 pm 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 3:36 pm
Posts: 3344
Location: Arizona, USA
Even the name of the gun who carry will come into play. American Handgunner had a lawyer whose client used a king cobra to defend himself with. Now the said client didn't lose the case but it put his lawyer behind the eight ball. Its a pistol named after a deadly animal or a g20???

_________________
Take Action.
I am a Paramedic.
ZS Arizona Chapter 18: Officer

Front Offensive Line of SpamWar 6/10:Axis of Oxycontin8878 I was a warrior.
Rush2112 wrote:
the_alias wrote:
AZMedic wrote:
'86 damn almost missed this cutoff. I remember baywatch ya then I became a lifeguard and was like wtf this isn't the same......

I honestly thought you were around 45 + :lol:

He's crotchety enough.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:08 pm 
Offline
* *
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:52 pm
Posts: 262
AZMedic wrote:
Even the name of the gun who carry will come into play. American Handgunner had a lawyer whose client used a king cobra to defend himself with. Now the said client didn't lose the case but it put his lawyer behind the eight ball. Its a pistol named after a deadly animal or a g20???

I always questioned the wisdom of Taurus naming a pistol "The Judge." Of course, they claim it's named such due to the number of judges who carry it for protection in the courtroom...

_________________
Non semper erit aestas.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:12 pm 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 3:36 pm
Posts: 3344
Location: Arizona, USA
Murf wrote:
AZMedic wrote:
Even the name of the gun who carry will come into play. American Handgunner had a lawyer whose client used a king cobra to defend himself with. Now the said client didn't lose the case but it put his lawyer behind the eight ball. Its a pistol named after a deadly animal or a g20???

I always questioned the wisdom of Taurus naming a pistol "The Judge." Of course, they claim it's named such due to the number of judges who carry it for protection in the courtroom...


Judges can carry in the court room..WTF? I thought only LEOs?

_________________
Take Action.
I am a Paramedic.
ZS Arizona Chapter 18: Officer

Front Offensive Line of SpamWar 6/10:Axis of Oxycontin8878 I was a warrior.
Rush2112 wrote:
the_alias wrote:
AZMedic wrote:
'86 damn almost missed this cutoff. I remember baywatch ya then I became a lifeguard and was like wtf this isn't the same......

I honestly thought you were around 45 + :lol:

He's crotchety enough.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:44 pm 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:29 am
Posts: 2191
Location: Caldwell, Idaho
To rburch and everyone else who carries a weapon:

What you wear does make a difference from witnesses, the officers who first respond, investigators, the prosecution and the media who demonizes you, the lawyers who will try to rape your wallet (and that is just your defense team) to the judge, jury and civil trial all over again.

What you carry for a weapon makes a difference as does the brand of ammo.

What you say before, during and after the shooting makes a difference.

My advice is to be the "gray man" as mentioned by steppenwolf. Even though that is not my style. I'm a LEO, even if I dressed like a gray man I would telegraph my "copness" to bad guys. (It's in my B.O. I guess :P ) So I dress the part so my brothers and sisters in blue, brown, or khaki recognize me as one of the fraternity and the bad guys get nervous when I give them the stare.

My advice on carrying a weapon is to pick a solid dependable factory pistol and don't customize it beyond adding night sights and grips. Threaded barrels, porting, lasers, etc. can work against you. Unless you are part of an entry team don't carry a tactical pistol. Save it for competition, the range, or the PAW.

My advice on what you say is to be polite, avoid arguments, give verbal warnings/commands without swearing or name calling and ask for an attorney after giving a very, very brief summary of what happened to the first responding officers. Such as "this guy came at me with a knife. I backed away yelling for him to drop the knife. I yelled (X) times before he forced me to shoot him. He kept on coming at me so I had to fire until he stopped his attack. Then I called 911 (or had someone else call 911). I want a lawyer."

To Paladin1 and Absintheur, that's fine that you wear the gear but be vigilant because you are advertising. It's likely that most street cops will count you as among the good guys (unless you are in a gun hating city :evil: ) but it won't help in court. But then again, there is very little that will help you in court except getting the best lawyer and self-defense expert witnesses to counter the BS the other side is going to sling at you.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:56 pm 
Offline
ZS Donor
ZS Donor
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:00 pm
Posts: 2653
Location: Indiana's Southern Coast
Istvan56 wrote:
To rburch and everyone else who carries a weapon:

What you wear does make a difference from witnesses, the officers who first respond, investigators, the prosecution and the media who demonizes you, the lawyers who will try to rape your wallet (and that is just your defense team) to the judge, jury and civil trial all over again.

Concur. Sadly, appearance matters. I would shed my last drop of blood (well, maybe not my last drop, but at least a few pints) to defend a person's right to wear anything they want, wear their hair any way they want, and grow whatever kind of crazy, Unabomber facial hair that they want to grow.

HOWEVER, if you want LEOs/soldiers/other folks in authority to assume you're one of the good guys, you will be:

1. Clean shaven
2. Sporting a short, conservative hair cut
3. Wearing clean, pressed slacks or jeans
4. Wearing a clean, pressed button down or polo

Period. That doesn't make it right or even fair, but it is what it is.

_________________
Holmes: "You have arms, I suppose?
Watson: "Yes, I thought it as well to take them."
Holmes: "Most certainly! Keep your revolver near you night and day, and never relax your precautions..."

- The Hound of the Baskervilles


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:01 pm 
Offline
* * * *

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:08 pm
Posts: 910
AZMedic wrote:
Murf wrote:
AZMedic wrote:
Even the name of the gun who carry will come into play. American Handgunner had a lawyer whose client used a king cobra to defend himself with. Now the said client didn't lose the case but it put his lawyer behind the eight ball. Its a pistol named after a deadly animal or a g20???

I always questioned the wisdom of Taurus naming a pistol "The Judge." Of course, they claim it's named such due to the number of judges who carry it for protection in the courtroom...


Judges can carry in the court room..WTF? I thought only LEOs?


To and from. I've heard of quite a few judges who carry to and from the courtroom. I've never heard of one carrying a weapon into the courtroom, but honestly, who would know?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group