Why do people think ammo will disappear?

[TheLastRifleMan]

Thanks, Jeriah. He was pretty happy with this one. The stock was a block of wood when he got it. No inletting, no shaping at all.

It is curly maple by the way. The stain, for some reason, perhaps a chemical reaction in the wood, turn red rather then the brown he was looking for. All his test pieces, done on scrap chunks, were a nice brown.
But it still looks good with the German sliver furtiture.

I read a book (to get back on topic) abot the history of gunpowder. I will see if I can find the title and author. It was quite amazing.

[Wolfe4086]

Thanks BHP, I always wondered about that since the military has piles of Ammunition in PrePo locations. Which now that I think bout it would be a nice stop off point in a ZPAW situation. Granted some of my fellow Guardsmen would know of the location I don't see it being that hard to swoop in loot and move.

Here we go again...

ROFL that is why I did not go into details for both legal and sanity's sake. Though I need to do some research into Real Estate in that area. Land is cheap and so are the houses.

[jamoni]

Great, now I have to go out and buy a black powder doublebarreled shotgun, and a repo colt navy model. Thanks, jerks! Zombie Squad, keeping me poor sincce 2003!

[TheLastRifleMan]

Go with the Army model in .44. Or better yet, get a Remington 1858 repro. Lot easier to clean and disasemble then a colt. Trust me, I know. I own both!

The Navy models in .36 lack very much punch and bullets are hard to find. Bullets for the .44's are much easier and have about 45 ACP punch at the muzzle.

[ironraven]

Making black powder is easy.

Yes, but getting your nitrates isn't so easy. You need a lot of it, and there aren't enough dung piles left to leach it out from under. I know of a few other sources, but nothing like what you'd need for long term, large quantity production that is going to be ready before you need the black powder.

And the sulfer isn't available readily for a lot of us. I recall a few battles fought for sulfer sources. Or is there some source I'm not thinking off?

[riply]

Go with the Army model in .44. Or better yet, get a Remington 1858 repro. Lot easier to clean and disasemble then a colt. Trust me, I know. I own both!

The Navy models in .36 lack very much punch and bullets are hard to find. Bullets for the .44's are much easier and have about 45 ACP punch at the muzzle.

I have had no problems with disassembling my colt i can even get the wedge to back out by hand. I use it and a Remington monthly at civil war reenactments. I prefer the colt because it feels better balanced to me.
What rifle is that in your avatar? I cant get a good look at it.

[BHP]

The damn computer screwed my original post so now comes the hack job...

I prefer the Remington cap and ball revolver for the following reasons;

1. more accurate
2. stronger action
3. better sights
4. exchangable cylinders make for faster loading (carry a spare cylinder or three)
5. more reliable, I have had more than one colt style gun get bound up because a spent cap fell off and bound up the action, never happened in my experience with the Remington

Replacment cylinders are made for some cap and ball revolvers that allow you to shoot brass cased cartridges. Most are made for the Remington pattern revolvers but some are also made for the Colt clones. .36 cal guns can fire .38 special with these cylinders and the .44 can fire (yes, you guessed it) .44. I have heard they are also available for some .45 cal guns but I havent seen them.

Thanks for the link Hunter, I couldn't remember the name of the product.


Personally I feel that if anyone here can master any one of the steps to making ammunition from scratch they would be well served by doing so. Even if you can't make the whole damn thing you could be a part of the process and that would be worthwhile.

[Aikibiker]

I figure by the time the pre-TEOTWAWKI manufactured ammo is used up some bright folks will have set up a carting industry to move goods from place to place. It might not be as efficient as the millions of 18 wheelers we have running all over the nation right now, but cargo will still move. There are also quite a few miles of railroad tracks that can be used to move cargo even if the trains stop running and there is the tried and true method of putting stuff on a boat and sailing it where it needs to go for folks near the coast or on rivers.

About the same time someone (probably several someones in multiple locations) will realize they can make a lot of money or whatever replaces it by selling ammunition and start figuring out how to make it.

Really people think that if the world ends every piece of technology will rust away overnight and all knowlege will disappear from people's minds. Not even the dark ages where that bad. Sure a lot of stuff will go away and we may get knocked back to say the early days of the industrial revolution technologically and even farther back socially, but I sincerely doubt we are gonna have to make arrowheads out of obsidian to use in our firehardened longbows with animal sinew bowstrings.

[Jeriah]

You might be right, Aiki, but do bear in mind: just because there might be a few people out there making and selling ammo, doesn't mean you or I will be able to afford it.

Let's say some people figure out where to get brass (a recycling program, i.e. give us 10 pounds of brass and we'll give you a few rounds of ammo, would be a good start), and they find and figure out how to work the machinery to make cartridge cases. Let's say they even figure out a way to run the plant off the now-defunct grid, with solar panels or a waterwheel or whatver.

Let's also say that they find a lead mine, or use a barter system to get people to bring them every wheel balancing weight, fishing weight, etc. in the country. Melting and casting lead is easy. Let's say they figure out how to copper jacket the rounds, too.

Now let's also say they figure out how to make smokeless powder. They identify the ingredients and set up the infrastructure to get them. They figure out how to process and combine them without blowing themselves up.

And primers. They make one of those tools to stamp primers out of beer cans, and they find where to get whatever it is modern firearms use in them instead of mercury fulminate, and they do that whole process.

So they can make the components of the ammo. From there, they can use ordinary reloading presses to assemble the rounds.

Now, who's going to go through all that trouble? Ah, there it is: who indeed? They'd have to have a pretty strong motive to go through all that trouble, and they'd need a lot of friends and resources to keep it all together. I don't think they're doing it to play St. Nick with shiny new ammo.

I'd imagine that it'd either be a somewhat powerful warlord trying to set up a new government, or a powerful group trying to become more powerful as a trading empire, capitalizing on the absurdly high value of ammo in the PAW.

Either way it's a good argument to lay in a good stockpile.

[spartan]

As Jeriah details, I speculate that in an all out PAW situation, ammunition prices will sky rocket as a trade good. Even if someone can manufacture it, prices equivalent to $10 a round for rifle ammunition are probably not unreasonable. I am inclined to see popular calibers of ammunition being more valuable as currency than precious metals.

Makes the argument for stockpiling while you can even better. You have something useful and lucratively tradeable.

[Jeriah]

As Jeriah details, I speculate that in an all out PAW situation, ammunition prices will sky rocket as a trade good. Even if someone can manufacture it, prices equivalent to $10 a round for rifle ammunition are probably not unreasonable. I am inclined to see popular calibers of ammunition being more valuable as currency than precious metals.

+1. $10 might even be LOW, if you think about it. Now, when we can just run down to MallWart and pick up a case, we think of firearms as (infinately) reloadable weapons, and ammunition as a consumable commodity. In a truly extended PAW, ammunition may become so scarce and precious (even if someone's manufacturing it) that we begin thinking of rounds of ammunition as single-shot weapons, and firearms merely as clip-on velocity enhancers.

It's a tad extreme, but I think it's possible.

Makes the argument for stockpiling while you can even better. You have something useful and lucratively tradeable.

+1. I don't always practice what I preach, but I think a person should own 1,000 rounds of ammunition for each caliber one shoots, bare minimum. And the more the merrier, really. It's not like it's wasted if the PAW never comes: you can always shoot it.

[spartan]

I do not always practice what I preach either. It just depends on the time of the year and what I have the mental energy to focus on. Thankfully, survival thoughts are the one thing that is keeping me on track right now. (I have a wedding in a week and the preperation is driving me and the future-wife a bit nutty, ZS is my reprieve).

My ammo stockpile plan goes something like this right now, with #of rounds being the minimums:

.22LR (5000rds)
.410 (slugs, #4 shot, 00Buck) (100 slugs, 250 of the others)
12ga (as .410, and some 7 1/2) (double the .410)
.45ACP (1500 rds)
7.62x39 (3000 rds)
.44 Mag (1000 rds. 3000 if I ever pick up a .44 lever action)

I see the .22, .45, and 12ga as what I will trade out of.

I look at getting so much .22 because it is inexpensive and I have a sweet shooting .22 rifle that would be my small game gun here in central PA.

[minengr]

You can do what you like, but there is no way in hell I’m going to reload ammo with “new” PAW powders and primers mixed up by “Crazy Bob the chemistry whiz”.

Ammo will keep for decades if stored properly. Reloading components, if stored correctly, will keep long enough to be used. $50 worth of surplus ammo cans and silica packs purchased now will see an unbelievable rate of return in a PAW.

I’d be hard-pressed to believe that your “new” powder would be manufactured with the same quality control available currently.

But, that’s just my opinion and I could be wrong.

[TheLastRifleMan]

Making black powder is easy.

Yes, but getting your nitrates isn't so easy. You need a lot of it, and there aren't enough dung piles left to leach it out from under. I know of a few other sources, but nothing like what you'd need for long term, large quantity production that is going to be ready before you need the black powder.

And the sulfer isn't available readily for a lot of us. I recall a few battles fought for sulfer sources. Or is there some source I'm not thinking off?

Your right about the ingredients. My point was making it, if you had all the components and know the ratios, is simple enough. Making good quality blackpowder is a real trick.

Just as smokeless powders were coming into vogue, black powder was at it's zenith. Some of the stuff that companies like DuPont, etc. was simply incredible. Dupont made blackpowder for naval guns that each grain was shaped like a hexagon with a hole through it. The secret has long been lost. It has been said that the best blackpowder produced today would be considered mid to low grade in 1888.

Urine is a good source of nitrate, if you willing to boil it and seperate it out.

Riply, this is a better pic. It is a .50 cal caplock my Dad built for a friend of his. This is rifle #8

[MICKPORNO]

Thanks BHP, I always wondered about that since the military has piles of Ammunition in PrePo locations. Which now that I think bout it would be a nice stop off point in a ZPAW situation. Granted some of my fellow Guardsmen would know of the location I don't see it being that hard to swoop in loot and move.

[phoenixmastm]

Nice wood.

Couldnt help but point that out.

As far as making black powder and black powder guns goes, you could learn that and learn how to make a blackpowder gun as well.

My only question is which mechanism is easier to work with: flintlock, or percussion? I know wheel-lock guns were a pain in the ass, as well as matchlocks.

[Jeriah]

Nice wood.

Couldnt help but point that out.

As far as making black powder and black powder guns goes, you could learn that and learn how to make a blackpowder gun as well.

My only question is which mechanism is easier to work with: flintlock, or percussion? I know wheel-lock guns were a pain in the ass, as well as matchlocks.

Flintlock and percussion are almost identical, other than 2 small parts:

The flintlock has a hammer designed to grip a piece of flint, while the percussion has a hammer with a hollow in the face, designed to surround a percussion cap.

The flintlock has a frizzen and pan, while the percussion lock has a nipple.

Building from a kit, and the process is probably pretty much the same.

The real question is, which would you rather shoot? And, if you're thinking PAW uses, would you rather stockpile/make caps, or flints?

The percussion is better in many ways, esp. in damp weather, but flints can be easier to find/make than caps.

[TheLastRifleMan]

Both have their problems. One is not really easier to build then the other, but I would rather built a cap lock then a flinter.

Caplocks are easier to maintain and repair. If you have a misfire, they can be made to fire much more quickly. Flintlocks are harder to clean and if the do not go off, finding out why can be tricky unless you have had a lot of experience with them or your particular rifle.

Caplocks are also a little more moisture resistant. Notice I said resisitant, not proof. Black powder pulles moisture ot of the air. It;s just in it;s nature. But the biggest adavantage of a flintlock is simply this: no caps. Loose your caps and you are screwed. Flint getting dull? Knock it about the edge with a screw driver and you back in business. Flint brakes? Put your spare in the cock. You do have a spare, don't you?

[Jeriah]

Both have their problems. One is not really easier to build then the other, but I would rather built a cap lock then a flinter.

Caplocks are easier to maintain and repair. If you have a misfire, they can be made to fire much more quickly. Flintlocks are harder to clean and if the do not go off, finding out why can be tricky unless you have had a lot of experience with them or your particular rifle.

Caplocks are also a little more moisture resistant. Notice I said resisitant, not proof. Black powder pulles moisture ot of the air. It;s just in it;s nature. But the biggest adavantage of a flintlock is simply this: no caps. Loose your caps and you are screwed. Flint getting dull? Knock it about the edge with a screw driver and you back in business. Flint brakes? Put your spare in the cock. You do have a spare, don't you?

In a 19th century or PAW sense, you should have several spares, shouldn't you? I've heard one needs to change flints every couple dozen shots, or at least sharpen it. Keep a few sharp so you can just swap 'em out, then sharpen 'em all at the end of the day. (This is what I heard from some re-enactors, never owned one myself.)

[jamoni]

Rimfire cases will probably be the standard. There's a reason that .22lr is so much cheaper than anything else: It's WAY easier to make. You form the case out of a sheet of brass (steel or aluminum or probably even copper would do), you pour a little primer in the bottom, fill and crimp. No primer inserts, no machined rims to worry about. Less powder, less brass, less lead. , easy manufacture, all equals low cost.

[Jeriah]

Rimfire cases will probably be the standard. There's a reason that .22lr is so much cheaper than anything else: It's WAY easier to make. You form the case out of a sheet of brass (steel or aluminum or probably even copper would do), you pour a little primer in the bottom, fill and crimp. No primer inserts, no machined rims to worry about. Less powder, less brass, less lead. , easy manufacture, all equals low cost.

Implying that in the PAW, there's going to be a return in large-caliber rimfire rounds?

The only problem I see is that this will mean people building new guns, rather than finding a way to make ammo for the guns they have.

It's a sensible idea, but I don't see it happening.

[One Of None]

As Jeriah details, I speculate that in an all out PAW situation, ammunition prices will sky rocket as a trade good. Even if someone can manufacture it, prices equivalent to $10 a round for rifle ammunition are probably not unreasonable. I am inclined to see popular calibers of ammunition being more valuable as currency than precious metals.

Makes the argument for stockpiling while you can even better. You have something useful and lucratively tradeable.

I doubt money/cash would have any value. Goods and services would be the new currency. Stockpiling is always a good idea.

[Jeriah]

As Jeriah details, I speculate that in an all out PAW situation, ammunition prices will sky rocket as a trade good. Even if someone can manufacture it, prices equivalent to $10 a round for rifle ammunition are probably not unreasonable. I am inclined to see popular calibers of ammunition being more valuable as currency than precious metals.

Makes the argument for stockpiling while you can even better. You have something useful and lucratively tradeable.

I doubt money/cash would have any value. Goods and services would be the new currency. Stockpiling is always a good idea.

I think that the closest thing to currency you could count on would be gold, and maybe silver. Not so much jewlery, as that's easier to fake, but I bet a lot of people would accept coin in trade. I would.

[BHP]

While many have touched on the buy it now and stock deep I will modify that just a bit. Buy a little on a frequent basis, even a box a week will add up before you know it, but store it in at least two locations. If one stockpile is compromised you will thank God that you had the forsight to plan a second stockpile.