The definitive ZS MRDS thread

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The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by Dabster » Wed May 08, 2019 12:22 pm

Not sure how definite this will be but I say we give it a shot!

In case you're wondering, MRDS stands for Miniature Red Dot Sights and it usually refers to the electronic sights that all of the cool kids are putting on their pistols.

To kick off the fun, please feel free to elaborate as you see fit but here are a couple of discussion points...
1. Are they a great idea or just a good idea?
2. What do you think of the new Aimpoint ACRO?
3. What do you think of the new Trijicon SRO?
4. Is the Trijicon RMR now antiquated?
5. Iron sights in front of or behind the MRDS?
6. Custom milling or OEM-MOS system?
7. Handy operational tips?
8. What about the other (Holosun, Vortex, etc) manufacturers?
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Re: The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by Dabster » Wed May 08, 2019 1:25 pm

I'll start. For a number of reasons I think they're an interesting but expensive option that I would like to pursue. The benefits are a more refined method of aiming that do not force the user to simply focus on the front sight and could provide better situational awareness.

I am really intriguded by the Aimpoint ACRO -it seems to have all of the features, it eliminates one of the biggest vulnerabilities (debris blocking the transmitter) but it is big, ugly, expensive, relatively untested and hard to find. I am slightly less inspired by the new Trijicon, sure it has a bigger window but it is still vulnerable to debis and fogging. The Trijicon RMR still interests me because it has been so well tested and new offerings might drop the price. I am acquainted with a local sheriff's training officer who has spearheaded the deployment of these on Glock 17s and I was quite impressed with them. So impressed I added a Glock 17 to my humble armory, with the intent of getting an MRDS.

I realize that doing so will make them less effective but I think, if possible, placing the iron sights in front of the MRDS is a good idea because they can potentially protect the sight more.

As I want the sights in front and I don't an an MOS slide, I am leaning towards having my slide machined.

All I have at the moment...
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Re: The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by NT2C » Wed May 08, 2019 1:45 pm

Red dots aren't just for pistols anymore though. I have 'em on my shotty and on my PCC with excellent results, and I went cheap. On the shotty is a Dagger Defense DDHB (soon to be replaced with the DDHT red version) while the PCC is adorned with a TRUGLO 2x42MM w/2.5MOA dot that has an MSRP of $176.99 but sells on Amazon for sub $50. Neither have let me down yet, both have proven accurate and able to hold zero, and the Dagger Defense RD on the shotty was good enough for head shots on stell using slugs at 100 yards, which ain't too shabby for a 20" cylinder choke pump.

Do we want to include lighted reticle sights here too, or put them elsewhere, because both of my .22s (10/22 in .22lr and bolt action Savage in .22WMR) both sport illuminated reticle zooms, the better to deal with nocturnal pests.
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Re: The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Wed May 08, 2019 2:28 pm

I currently own two MRDS, a Bushnell TRS-25 and some Weaver branded micro red dot (not sure what the model name is since I bought it secondhand at a local flea market).

The TRS-25 used to live on my AK, but I moved it over to my AR when I figured the spot I had it on my AK would fry it due to heat. It was right on top of the railed Troy Industries gas tube, so I'm not sure if it'd work in that position.

The Weaver micro dot lives on my Ruger 22/45 Lite and has been pretty good. If I can find a low enough mount for it, I might swap it over to my AR as well. Or I may just swap it over to my 10/22 with the picatinny rail on the reciever.

My eyesight blows (I think it's due to a lifetime of sitting in front of a TV or computer and also getting sprayed in the face with some sort of engine cleaner when I was a kid.), so the dots on either optic are a little fuzzy, but it's not bad enough that I can't use them. I've got another sight that has three color options on the dot and to me, a blue or green dot is easier to pick up with my eyesight. I wish my Weaver and Bushnell sights had the option for green or blue dots instead of just the red ones.

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Re: The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by RickOShea » Wed May 08, 2019 2:46 pm

Dabster wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 12:22 pm
3. What do you think of the new Trijicon SRO?
4. Is the Trijicon RMR now antiquated?
I have an RMR, nice little sight. But I like the top side battery placement on the SRO....no need to remove the SRO from the mount/slide to replace the battery, unlike the RMR. Burris did the same with the FF3, but to keep the same footprint as the FF2, they had to use a smaller CR1632 battery. At least the SRO still uses a CR2032.
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Re: The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by Stercutus » Wed May 08, 2019 4:03 pm

I don't like MRDS. I think the Romeo 5 is about as small as a sight as I can appreciate. If a scope is too low I have great difficulty acquiring the dot with my large head and muscle memory of the older style sights. The Romeo 5 is small but sits up high and is cowitnessed so it works for me.
Dagger Defense DDHB (soon to be replaced with the DDHT red version
I don't really consider those to be "mini" these days. True, they are smaller then the old Aimpoint M4 but they are still quite large. The ACRO for example is only 2 ounces, your scope weighs more than half a pound.


So far as where to put your BUIS I pretty much always use cowitness folders, FS in front, RS to rear unless it is unreasonable to do so. For example when running a magnified scope I use 45 degree offsets. Not all my scopes are quick detach and I am not crazy about the idea of ripping it off and throwing it down because it got a coating of mist, mud or whatever on the lenses. Also when running a magnified scope if I suddenly happen upon a deer 25 feet away a quick turn to the side is amazingly fast to finish it.
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Re: The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by NT2C » Wed May 08, 2019 4:22 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 4:03 pm
Dagger Defense DDHB (soon to be replaced with the DDHT red version
I don't really consider those to be "mini" these days. True, they are smaller then the old Aimpoint M4 but they are still quite large. The ACRO for example is only 2 ounces, your scope weighs more than half a pound.
I'll readily agree with you that it's larger than what's being discussed and likely does not belong in this thread (my bad) but I'm not sure where you got that weight from. I just put it on my postal scale and it's 5.4oz. with battery.
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Sic quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit; occidentis telum est - Seneca the Younger, Epistles

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Re: The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by Stercutus » Wed May 08, 2019 5:10 pm

It was on amazon, might have had the wrong specs up. The Trijicon is 1.6 Ounces. These are really small and light. Smaller and lighter isn't always better.
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Re: The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by NT2C » Wed May 08, 2019 7:40 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 5:10 pm
Smaller and lighter isn't always better.
I have to agree with you, but only because I'm getting older and my vision isn't as sharp as it used to be, and it was crap to start with. A slightly larger optic, while it may be heavier and bulkier than one of these new micros, can offer a wider viewing angle which makes it suitable for use by more people.
Nonsolis Radios Sediouis Fulmina Mitto. - USN Gunner's Mate motto

Sic quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit; occidentis telum est - Seneca the Younger, Epistles

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Re: The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by Dabster » Fri May 10, 2019 12:59 pm

Just to keep this going and as informative as possible, here are a few links on the hardware I'm interested in...

--Trijicon RMR: [YouTube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6qCSQH4mwg[/YouTube]
--Trijicon SRO: [YouTube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mifTnZX5-hc[/YouTube]
--Aimpoint ACRO: [YouTube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6gqQuN6xdA[/YouTube]

Of course, the obligatory: Why yes I can shoot a pistol just as well as Aaron Cowen from Sage Dynamics... :roll:
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Re: The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by RickOShea » Fri May 10, 2019 3:00 pm

Dabster wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 12:59 pm
Just to keep this going and as informative as possible, here are a few links on the hardware I'm interested in...

--Trijicon RMR:

--Trijicon SRO:

--Aimpoint ACRO:


Of course, the obligatory: Why yes I can shoot a pistol just as well as Aaron Cowen from Sage Dynamics... :roll:
FTFY.
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Re: The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by Dabster » Fri May 10, 2019 3:32 pm

RickOShea wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 3:00 pm
FTFY.
Thank you. How'd you do that?
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Re: The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by RickOShea » Fri May 10, 2019 3:40 pm

Dabster wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 3:32 pm
RickOShea wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 3:00 pm
FTFY.
Thank you. How'd you do that?
For YT links on this forum, you gotta delete the "s" in "https".
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Re: The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by flybynight » Fri May 10, 2019 7:51 pm

When I think red dots sights I...remember...

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Re: The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by boskone » Fri May 10, 2019 8:13 pm

I just stumbled across what may be the microest red dot ever, the Noblex-Doctor Optics GLOCK M.O.S..

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Re: The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by Halfapint » Sun May 12, 2019 2:40 pm

boskone wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 8:13 pm
I just stumbled across what may be the microest red dot ever, the Noblex-Doctor Optics GLOCK M.O.S..
You weren't joking! wow that is tiny
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Re: The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by RonnyRonin » Sun May 12, 2019 3:02 pm

I did a lot of research awhile back, things have probably changed a bit since then.
I really wanted to like the Leupold deltapoint pro for its very clear glass and top opening battery compartment, but I heard far to many "had to send it back for work" stories for me to trust it. While I'm not blown away by RMRs they still seemed like the best option at the times.

I am most interested in sights like the Shield RMS that can be used with standard height iron sights and protrude less for general carry comfort.

I will say I far prefer sealed optics to the open MRDSs that dominate the market, there aren't many that are practical for pistol use but I'd like to see more development in this direction. I know very few people have experienced debris blocking the emitter but it is possible and it does happen.

Awhile ago I dipped my toe in the pistol RDS world the cheapest way I could find:

Image

The aimpoint dovetail mount, it was only cheap because I had already purchased an aimpoint R-1 when they discontinued them (thanks ZS for the heads up on that deal BTW), but I'm fairly certain the holosun microdots would fit the mount as well.

Image

all I needed was a clamp a wooden clothes pin and a rubber mallet to install it in my kitchen.

Image

it is awkwardly high and leaves no way of using irons, but it has been very educational. My main use case has been for PDW use with an endo and KAK brace, in which case the extra height doesn't hurt at all. I may swap this with a Holosun down the road to save wear and tear on my aimpoint, but if someone wants to try things out for themselves without spending a bunch on a custom mill job this is one way.
From talking to a guy with the new flux glock brace the extra height might be even better if you are thinking of going that direction for a PDW.
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Re: The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by Dabster » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:56 pm

After several weeks of having my heart set on an Aimpoint ACRO…
https://thegunblog.ca/wp-content/upload ... RO-P-1.jpg

They are big and shaped like a mailbox but not THIS big…
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2018060 ... ad3905.jpg

I am now hearing a rumor that the market has turned away from them because of a shockingly short battery life of 6 – 10 days, despite manufacturer claims of twelve months. I am looking and listening for more details on this rumor. None of the YouTube gun celebs has posted anything. My project is on hold and may switch back to the known quantity of the Trijicon RMR.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... BCC4u1q2w

I am seeing little discussion or debate, most of it is found in isolated pockets. Either purchasers are reluctant to admit buyers’ remorse or the manufacturer has clamped down on it.

Apologies for the links instead of pics.
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Re: The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by Dabster » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:14 pm

A little update for anyone keeping score at home... :awesome:

After hearing that battery life on the Aimpoint ACRO was unreasonably short, that is: it died if left on high for more than nine days, I started to look into this. A variety of unknown individuals around the internet were saying the same thing. I contacted Aimpoint several different ways and they never responded. If it lasted two months I could live with this but as a commited would-be prepper, I cannot live with that kind of battery demand.

I was preparing to wait for something better to come out. Maybe a new ACRO or an enclosed RDS from Trijicon. Then I learned that SOCOM had started issuing the ubiquitous Trijicon RMR (https://www.shootingillustrated.com/art ... mr-type-2/). If it's good and tough enough for them -it should be more than adequate for someone like me, right?

I then started looking at the RMR. Sure I've looked at them, tried a friend's and was quite impressed but once I started thinking about getting one -I became more impressed. Sure they have the potential vulnerability of the exposed transmitter but genuine examples of this actually being a problem are pretty scarce and examples of them breaking or failing are virtually non-existent. Plus they look cool.

So I am now the owner of 6.5 MOA Model 2 RMR. :crazy: Why 6.5? Two reasons, first is the recommendation from Sage Dynamics -faster, more stable; second is the fact that if it's unacceptable they are easy to re-sell.

I have also sent my slide of to Jagerwerks for milling. Nothing fancy, they will just mill the RMR, placing the rear sight in front of the optic, upgrade the rear serrations and add front radius serrations. It's won't be pretty but it should be easier to manipulate the slide.

Editing to add that I called Trijicon as some have recommended to verify that my RMR was not a counterfeit. The helpful customer service rep confirmed I had a unique and accurate serial number and even knew the vendor where I purchased it.

Should have her all done in about a month -standby for pics and a thoroughly ignorant review!
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Re: The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by the_alias » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:50 pm

I have a Shield RMS/C coming with an 8moa dot (large) that I picked up for a great deal on ebay.

It's going on a G19 slide to co-witness with my irons. Excited to move forward. At distance the RDS really does help.
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Re: The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by devildog70 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:07 pm

I have been running a RMR06 Type 1 on a Roland Special, since April, 2016. That combo currently has right at 29k rounds through it, and has been my off-duty carry the whole time.

In terms of classes, I have run it in Rogers Shooting School, Centrifuge Training VCQB Instructor, EAG Tactical Carbine Operator''s Course, Sage Dynamics RDS Handgun Instructor, two Presscheck Consulting No-Fail Pistols, Pat Mxnamara TAPS Handgun/Rifle Instructor, and a few regional classes. In addition, it has been used in dozens of personal range sessions.

It has been used in snow, rain, sleet, high humidity hot days, low-light, and under NVGs. I also have time on Cowan's ACRO, a DPP, and a Holosun 507. I am 100% sold on MRDS for handgun use. It makes low-light/no-light feel like cheating, and makes shots at 100+ yards boringly easy. This translates to making low-percentage shots much easier. I've also found it makes shooting while moving/shooting at moving targets/shooting at movers while moving easier. Even using an open emitter, I have not found the environment where mine has failed.

I do not baby my gear. My Roland Special has been dropped, kicked across gravel, and fallen on. The RMR has been used as the primary method of racking the slide - by hand, off tires, steering wheels, window sills, doors/door frames, curbs, boot heels, holsters, belt buckles, etc. It has never lost zero (even when removed for the three battery changes I have done on it).

The gun functions flawlessly with 147gr, 124gr 124 gr +P. With 115gr, if the gun is very dirty and dry, it begins to experience FTEs. A couple drops of lube fixes it.

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Re: The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by Dabster » Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:47 pm

devildog70 wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:07 pm
I have been running a RMR06 Type 1 on a Roland Special, since April, 2016. That combo currently has right at 29k rounds through it, and has been my off-duty carry the whole time.

In terms of classes, I have run it in Rogers Shooting School, Centrifuge Training VCQB Instructor, EAG Tactical Carbine Operator''s Course, Sage Dynamics RDS Handgun Instructor, two Presscheck Consulting No-Fail Pistols, Pat Mxnamara TAPS Handgun/Rifle Instructor, and a few regional classes. In addition, it has been used in dozens of personal range sessions.

It has been used in snow, rain, sleet, high humidity hot days, low-light, and under NVGs. I also have time on Cowan's ACRO, a DPP, and a Holosun 507. I am 100% sold on MRDS for handgun use. It makes low-light/no-light feel like cheating, and makes shots at 100+ yards boringly easy. This translates to making low-percentage shots much easier. I've also found it makes shooting while moving/shooting at moving targets/shooting at movers while moving easier. Even using an open emitter, I have not found the environment where mine has failed.

I do not baby my gear. My Roland Special has been dropped, kicked across gravel, and fallen on. The RMR has been used as the primary method of racking the slide - by hand, off tires, steering wheels, window sills, doors/door frames, curbs, boot heels, holsters, belt buckles, etc. It has never lost zero (even when removed for the three battery changes I have done on it).

The gun functions flawlessly with 147gr, 124gr 124 gr +P. With 115gr, if the gun is very dirty and dry, it begins to experience FTEs. A couple drops of lube fixes it.
:ooh:

What do you think of the move towards the 3.25 MOA reticle? I think that I have seen all of the Sage Dynamic videos and believe he still recommends the 6.5 MOA reticle. If you bought another, what would you get?

Thanks!
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Re: The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by devildog70 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:55 pm

Dabster wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:47 pm
devildog70 wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:07 pm
I have been running a RMR06 Type 1 on a Roland Special, since April, 2016. That combo currently has right at 29k rounds through it, and has been my off-duty carry the whole time.

In terms of classes, I have run it in Rogers Shooting School, Centrifuge Training VCQB Instructor, EAG Tactical Carbine Operator''s Course, Sage Dynamics RDS Handgun Instructor, two Presscheck Consulting No-Fail Pistols, Pat Mxnamara TAPS Handgun/Rifle Instructor, and a few regional classes. In addition, it has been used in dozens of personal range sessions.

It has been used in snow, rain, sleet, high humidity hot days, low-light, and under NVGs. I also have time on Cowan's ACRO, a DPP, and a Holosun 507. I am 100% sold on MRDS for handgun use. It makes low-light/no-light feel like cheating, and makes shots at 100+ yards boringly easy. This translates to making low-percentage shots much easier. I've also found it makes shooting while moving/shooting at moving targets/shooting at movers while moving easier. Even using an open emitter, I have not found the environment where mine has failed.

I do not baby my gear. My Roland Special has been dropped, kicked across gravel, and fallen on. The RMR has been used as the primary method of racking the slide - by hand, off tires, steering wheels, window sills, doors/door frames, curbs, boot heels, holsters, belt buckles, etc. It has never lost zero (even when removed for the three battery changes I have done on it).

The gun functions flawlessly with 147gr, 124gr 124 gr +P. With 115gr, if the gun is very dirty and dry, it begins to experience FTEs. A couple drops of lube fixes it.
:ooh:

What do you think of the move towards the 3.25 MOA reticle? I think that I have seen all of the Sage Dynamic videos and believe he still recommends the 6.5 MOA reticle. If you bought another, what would you get?

Thanks!
I like the 3.25. I would actually consider a 1 MOA dot. A smaller dot can be turned up to bloom "bigger." A large dot cannot be made more fine.

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Re: The definitive ZS MRDS thread

Post by Dabster » Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:22 pm

An update...

I got my slide back from JagerWerks. It was shipped back 30 days after they got it and they messaged me with tracking info after they shipped. I had them enhance the rear serrations. This is kind of subtle but makes it a nudge grippier. I also had them add radius serrations -this certainly looks cool and makes the slide easier to grab but wasn't as helpful as I expected, see below. The machine work looked very neat and precise. The Nitride looks darker and more even than what was on this brand new slide. They installed my Dawson Precision suppressor-height sights and these looked fine.

All that was left to do was to put on the sight. With a bit of blue Loc-tite it was silly easy. I followed a process that I found on Youtube where I put it on slightly snug, then repeatedly tapped it and tightened it down until it was solidly attached.

The Type 2 RMR07 with a 6.5 MOA dot looked great. The dot is easy to find if the pistol is adequately oriented. I am not finding the larger dot obtrusive. I am making hits at 25 yards and think I could do it at 50.

How do I like it? After about six hundred rounds and seven trips to the range, I #@$%^ love it! The dot is much more precise than I have found a way to do with iron sights. It has not hugely transformed my accuracy or speed but it has helped significantly -about 10 to 30% more accurate. Do I always find the dot at first? Not yet but it is getting better. One neat benefit of having a virtually indestructible bump on the top of the slide is that it makes racking the slide easier than ever before.

TLDR: Was it expensive? Kinda. Was it worth it? Definitely. Would I do anything differently? Maybe skip the radius serrations. Am I glad I went for the RMR over the ACRO? Heck yes. The latest reviews are showing a three week battery life -it might be a great sight but I don't want and can't afford the required batteries.
I am not a 'gray man'. I am a brown man, coyote brown. With FDE highlights, of course.

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