Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by DementedDigital » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:18 pm

Murph wrote:
olbaid_dratsab wrote:Thats like saying "I'm cool with a car crash that only needs a seatbelt, but I refuse to crash with one that needs a seat belt AND an air bag" Like, those statements never made sense to me.
That because people have the idea that some places are more or less safe than other places.
But in reality, NO place is safe; bad shit can happen anywhere.
Some places ARE less safe than other places. Crime statistics based on location clearly show that. I used to live near Detroit. I now live in Sarasota, FL. There is a night and day difference in the violent crime between the two.

I do agree that bad things happen everywhere, though. No place is safe, for sure. Shootings happen here, too.

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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by olbaid_dratsab » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:45 pm

can anyone show some actual evidence that the mag is more likely to fail vs the gun? What shit mags are yins useing that cause all these failures...not just a malfunction needing some immeadiate actions, but these remedial action needing failures?
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by MacAttack » Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:02 am

I am a one and one guy.

One gun and one reload.
12+1 plus 12 or better with a larger gun.

I own revolvers but NEVER consider one as a ccw or even a backup.
As others have pointed out cops have been shot trying to reload a revolver when against a perp with a semi auto. So I at least want something that works and reloads just as fast as the other guy.

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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by DementedDigital » Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:06 am

olbaid_dratsab wrote:can anyone show some actual evidence that the mag is more likely to fail vs the gun? What shit mags are yins useing that cause all these failures...not just a malfunction needing some immeadiate actions, but these remedial action needing failures?
I don't think that you'll find actual statistics. I can only go by what I've seen.

I've seen bad feed lips on both rifle and pistol mags, poor latching mags, swollen Glock mags that you had to pull out with some force, and I witnessed the floor plate fail on a friend's carry pistol at a restaurant - complete with spring and live rounds on the floor. Should these have been replaced prior to failure? Sure. But everything begins to fail at some point, and the clue that something is starting to fail is a malfunction. (...unless you measure the lips on your mags at some frequency and know the go-no go specs)

I don't remember the last time I saw a firearm failure that wasn't related to the ammo or the magazine.

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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by Neptune Glory » Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:53 am

jor-el wrote:Really? I chide every guy that makes the claim about self-limiting your ammo supplies.
Okay, jor-el... let me ask for your advice then. I carry a Glock 19 and a Glock 26. Between the two of them, they carry 25 rounds total. (I don't +1 carry because I have to take them off to get into work, etc, to be a *legally* armed citizen.) I also carry a spare G19 magazine, for 40 rounds total.

How many more magazines do you think I should carry? I have one additional G19 mag, one additional G26 mag, and one 33-rd factory glock magazine. Should I carry all of those? Should I buy more?

Thanks!
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by olbaid_dratsab » Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:22 pm

Its probably more an issue with theory than in practice. In practice, most folks are generally in the same boat. If we can or can't carry something, its because of a pragmatic reason. But, yeah, if there's a goofy reason (i'll only need this many rounds) or a lazy reason (I don't like it in my pocket), then that CCW carrier looses a certain degree of respect as a CCW carrier. I think thats what he meant. A good pistol, full size or compact, and spare mag is a pretty reasonable thing to expect a CCW carrier to have on their person.

It can go the other way too. I met a guy in the AirForce who was CCWing an AK pistol and like, two other pistols under a huge coat in pretty warm weather. I thought that dude was a total ass clown. Even in cold weather, he'd have been a chode.

You carry more than me on any day anyways. I rarely have two guns on my person, yet alone two double stacked guns.

Also, did you get my PM reply? make any sense?
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by Neptune Glory » Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:04 pm

olbaid_dratsab wrote:Also, did you get my PM reply? make any sense?
I did, olbaid_dratsab, and it did. Thanks for the advice. I'm weighing the options... not rushing off to make a purchase or anything.

Thanks again!
"When it comes to justifiable use of deadly force, you should seek to avoid confrontation, unless you have no choice and your life is on the line. This is easier to say than to do because it requires that you be calm and peace-loving throughout your life, but ready to use deadly force at any moment."

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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by MacAttack » Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:54 pm

One of the things I have against a BUG is the fact that so many people chose a different gun as their backup.

Not just a different caliber but a totally different manual of arms.

You practice weekly with your primary semi auto only to go ahead and carry a revolver for a back up.

Your carry four extra mags for your primary but nothing for the backup. What if the primary dies on the first shot?

Your most logical backup is one that takes the same mags and ammo as your primary.

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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by AS556 » Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:26 pm

I carry one gun and one reload whether carrying revolver or auto. Anything more feels excessive to me, though I like the idea in theory and sometimes do carry several mags I dislike the bulk of the additional reload. Never seriously considered carrying a BUG.

Really dislike conceal carrying full size pistols, I only carry compact, subcompact and micros always appendix. Mags go in left pocket, speed loaders in right. I practice this way often and its always worked just fine.

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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by 2now » Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:53 pm

Base your decision on your life style, legal climate and likely risks.

There were times I carried 2 guns because I was in and out of a car all day, and my BUG was carried in way that was extremely easy to access when sitting with a seat belt on.

Now I carry 1 gun because I litigate a lot more and my biggest risk is forgetting something and getting caught with it by as metal detector.
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by Paladin1 » Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:56 pm

Personally, I just carry a G19. That with a folder, wallet, phone, keys is all I want to drag around.

Certainly I understand the possibility of a malfunctioning gun/mag. But after thousands of rounds down range in training days, range days, 3gun matches-I think the odds of a malf with my gun/mag is so low that, it's not worth the extra weight.

While we can all google up exceptions or can share some anecdotal stories, the fact remains that 99% of the time SD gunfights are over within a few rounds/minutes.

If I have to go into a situ that I think has more risk, I'll carry a G34 with a light on it and a spare mag.

I focus on being accurate, fast, and mobile. YMMV.
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by Omega Storm » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:06 pm

99% of the time I carry a Glock 19 4:00 and Glock 26 in left front pants pocket(BDUs/TRUs are roomy and i own lots of them) and two spare 15-rd G19 mags. One spare on each side. No matter what arm is incapacitated I have a pistol and spare mag available. One mag rides with G19 in an old Tactical Tailor discreet carry holster pouch thingy. Zipper is amazingly fast. Other spare is on left in old Gerber folding knife sheath. G19 and G26 are identical manual of arms and very very similar to fire as well as my G19 mags obviously working in both. Just have to make sure I don't hulk a 19 mag into my 26. Obviouslly also a Leatherman Wave, CRKT M16-13Z(made before ridiculous auto-lawks but with perfectly good manual second lock in same place), phone, wallet, Surefire 6P with Cree LED conversion for 225+ Lumens of blinding goodness, keys, FAK, and other EDC. In my murse I always have two more G19 mags, and in the GHB backpack (which stays in the car) are three 33-rd G18 mags and two more G19 mags to feed my carry guns and the Sub2K(triple weapon mag/ammo interchangeability Ftw!!) that rides in the bag. Course if I can get to my car I'm going to try to put the pedal down and get away or if blocked use the car as a blunt weapon. All rounds are Winchester 9BPLE 115-gr +P+ that CTD had a sale on in 06 or so and I picked up about 2000 rounds at about $8.00 per a box of 50.

I agree with the x shots being BS. You never know when you will need your weapon, how many bandits, how many misses, how much whatever. Shooting IDPA for a few summers I saw three different people have critical 'rounds, spring, and base plate spewed on ground' failures from mags. One Beretta 9MM with factory mag, Sig 9MM also factory mag, and Glock 17 ditto on the mag. I think the rapid ejections onto hard surfaces at matches was to blame. Two failures occurred at 'load your weapon'. Mag goes in and slide comes forward and bullets FLY out bottom of mag. One was in the middle of a course of fire and they just let go. Hence I now have three categories for mags: Factory for carry, factory for practice/training, and crappy for fun.

I absolutely agree on up-arming to go into a bad area/neighborhood but if you'll be emboldened to go somewhere/do something only because you have your weapon(s) maybe you should reconsider. Conversely criminals want to get you unaware. Waiting for prey in bushes by the trendy coffee place vs. crouched in alley in mean part of town. One your chilling and the other extra alert, but you miscalled it. Criminals unfortunately aren't always total idiots.

Also someone mentioned not carrying +1 because of having to enter a free fire unarmed victim area, umm sorry 'Gun Free Zone', for work. I have to go to local courthouse occasionally for paperwork issues regarding business so I have to secure my weapons prior. I know eventually I may have a negligent discharge while loading/unloading my weapons before putting them away in my vehicle lock box. That slight risk does not outweigh needing a loaded weapon NOW other times in my opinion. Since my mags and pistol go in the same box I have taken to just leaving said +1 up the spout. Joe Criminal who maybe steals the box(which is bolted down) probably knows how to insert and rack. Also the bullet setback in case issue from repeated loading/unloading is minimized although swapping the top rounds regularly prevents it if you must regularly load/unload. My G19 is on me when out, around the house, in holster next to my shower or crapper, and obviously by my bedside (with my loaded Tavor hanging above it). I just leave it +1 at all times unless cleaning(and damn do carry guns attract some lint). G26 goes in bedroom safe still loaded and inside pocket holster as soon as I'm home.

Sometimes carry G26 as BUG in custom offside ankle holster mounted quite firmly to my boot(yes it conceals a block 26 lol). Good if I were to get knocked down or to draw while seated in vehicle. Hence they are my long drive traveling boots.

The most informative part of the article about the officer who now carries beau coup more rounds was Focus, Aim carefully, and practice Headshots. Too much time needed for hydraulic loss i.e. blood loss to cause unconsciousness and pistol rounds don't usually do guaranteed massive enough CNS, or Central Nervous System, damage unless you get them into the cranial vault.

Off-topic but related:
My personal view on CCW after eight years carrying: Take responsibility for your safety and that of your loved ones, learn and live four rules, learn to shoot well, acquire quality weapon, enough quality ammo, enough quality mags, quality belt & quality holster, practice, get your CCW, get some training(even if just IDPA which at least teaches fast/tac reloads, using cover, and being aware of non-threats in firing line), practice some more, mentally rehearse scenarios in your mind randomly as you go about your day (if a bad guy came around that corner I would X), practice some more, and lastly CARRY EVERYWHERE PERMISSIBLE! I have also been reading/thinking a lot on the aftermath of a shooting where you were the victim. In some places/situations what the prosecutor does to you makes what the bad guy was trying to do almost seem quaint and friendly. Get 911 call in first, secure/unload emptied weapon(s) off your body, don't move anything else!, cooperate fully with LEOs when they arrive (as you are possibly the aggressor), minimal statement at scene ie he/she/they did X & I did Y as I was IN FEAR OF MY LIFE(make sure that goes in LEO report) & point out evidence at scene & cooperate but don't brag, embellish, or guess & do state you will sign a complaint, and then request to be medically checked out as you are likely in shock just from the experience and offer to answer further questions after hospital check(which also gives you time to collect your thoughts, decompress, and contact an attorney just in case).

YMMV

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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by Neptune Glory » Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:15 am

Omega Storm wrote:Also someone mentioned not carrying +1 because of having to enter a free fire unarmed victim area, umm sorry 'Gun Free Zone', for work. I have to go to local courthouse occasionally for paperwork issues regarding business so I have to secure my weapons prior. I know eventually I may have a negligent discharge while loading/unloading my weapons before putting them away in my vehicle lock box. That slight risk does not outweigh needing a loaded weapon NOW other times in my opinion. Since my mags and pistol go in the same box I have taken to just leaving said +1 up the spout. Joe Criminal who maybe steals the box(which is bolted down) probably knows how to insert and rack. Also the bullet setback in case issue from repeated loading/unloading is minimized although swapping the top rounds regularly prevents it if you must regularly load/unload. My G19 is on me when out, around the house, in holster next to my shower or crapper, and obviously by my bedside (with my loaded Tavor hanging above it). I just leave it +1 at all times unless cleaning(and damn do carry guns attract some lint). G26 goes in bedroom safe still loaded and inside pocket holster as soon as I'm home.
What I meant to type was, I do carry the pistol loaded and ready to fire in a holster. In a 15 round magazine, that gives me a 14+1 for my Glock 19 and in a 10 round magazine, it gives me a 9+1. When I take the pistols off and stow them, I unload the bullets from their respective chambers, and put them back in the magazines. I then double check that the pistols are unloaded, dry-fire them, and then put the magazines back into place. That way there's no potential for an accidental discharge, but the slides can be racked very quickly upon accessing them to make both pistols ready to fire.
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by Murph » Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:41 am

Why not leave the pistol (loaded; w/ full mag and +1 in pipe) in its holster, and take it off still holstered to store it?
Does your BOB at least have: water, basic tools, fire, food, first-aid kit, and shelter?
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by DementedDigital » Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:46 am

Neptune Glory wrote: What I meant to type was, I do carry the pistol loaded and ready to fire in a holster. In a 15 round magazine, that gives me a 14+1 for my Glock 19 and in a 10 round magazine, it gives me a 9+1. When I take the pistols off and stow them, I unload the bullets from their respective chambers, and put them back in the magazines. I then double check that the pistols are unloaded, dry-fire them, and then put the magazines back into place. That way there's no potential for an accidental discharge, but the slides can be racked very quickly upon accessing them to make both pistols ready to fire.
Why not just secure it the same way you carry it? If it's going to be locked-up anyway, what's the need to go through all of the hassle to clear the chamber? Less manipulation is better. Here is another reason why not: http://www.calccw.com/Forums/announceme ... ounds.html

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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by Neptune Glory » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:01 am

Small car, and the holsters aren't easy to put on in the car, or take off.
"When it comes to justifiable use of deadly force, you should seek to avoid confrontation, unless you have no choice and your life is on the line. This is easier to say than to do because it requires that you be calm and peace-loving throughout your life, but ready to use deadly force at any moment."

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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by Neptune Glory » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:07 am

To avoid an accidental discharge when retrieving the weapons from storage... Picking them up, I could accidentally pull the trigger. Accidental discharges are high on my list of things to never, ever allow to happen. I *do* cycle my ammunition, as recommended by that article you linked.
"When it comes to justifiable use of deadly force, you should seek to avoid confrontation, unless you have no choice and your life is on the line. This is easier to say than to do because it requires that you be calm and peace-loving throughout your life, but ready to use deadly force at any moment."

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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by Murph » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:48 am

Neptune Glory wrote:Small car, and the holsters aren't easy to put on in the car, or take off.
What car, pistol, holster, holster location, belt, height, weight, lockbox, lockbox location, etc.??
Does your BOB at least have: water, basic tools, fire, food, first-aid kit, and shelter?
"When planning, prepare for the most likely, and then the most catastrophic."
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by DementedDigital » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:39 pm

Neptune Glory wrote:Small car, and the holsters aren't easy to put on in the car, or take off.
Can you leave the holster on but secure the pistol in the car? I guess it would depend on where you're going.

I don't like to be constantly clearing and chambering rounds when I remove the pistol or holster it. I don't really see the point, as I'm going to lock it up anyway. In my opinion, the extra manipulation makes it MORE likely that someone would eventually have an accidental discharge rather than less.

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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by Murph » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:56 pm

DementedDigital wrote:
Neptune Glory wrote:Small car, and the holsters aren't easy to put on in the car, or take off.
Can you leave the holster on but secure the pistol in the car? I guess it would depend on where you're going.

I don't like to be constantly clearing and chambering rounds when I remove the pistol or holster it. I don't really see the point, as I'm going to lock it up anyway. In my opinion, the extra manipulation makes it MORE likely that someone would eventually have an accidental discharge rather than less.
Don't forget ADs can happen when unholstering / holstering too, not just handling or manipulating the pistol. Hence why I asked why people don't take holster off with the pistol still in it...
Does your BOB at least have: water, basic tools, fire, food, first-aid kit, and shelter?
"When planning, prepare for the most likely, and then the most catastrophic."
raptor wrote: Being a gun collector does not make you a prepper.
the_alias wrote: Murph has all the diplomacy of a North Korean warhead, but -he has- a valid point

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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by LowKey » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:00 pm

Murph wrote: Don't forget ADs can happen when unholstering / holstering too, not just handling or manipulating the pistol. Hence why I asked why people don't take holster off with the pistol still in it...
I always did when I was using a paddle holster.
Guns are inanimate objects. If they are in good repair they won't go off unless you pull the trigger-period. No reason to pull it out of the holster to clear it when putting the whole shebang up for the night, just a press check in the AM to be sure it's still GTG. After all, you're still treating it as loaded (which it is) the whole time.
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by DementedDigital » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:33 pm

Murph wrote:Don't forget ADs can happen when unholstering / holstering too, not just handling or manipulating the pistol. Hence why I asked why people don't take holster off with the pistol still in it...
Good advice. When I carry a striker-fired pistol in a Remora holster, the whole thing comes out. If I'm carrying IWB using an IWB holster, the holster generally stays on. (In that particular case, my carry pistol has an external safety which prevents a trigger pull and it also keeps the slide in battery. No worries holstering that one. I just take it out, lock it up, then unlock it, and finally reholster it. No shuffling of rounds and magazines is necessary. Half of the time, my wife doesn't even notice.)

If you're not actively training with it or actively using it to defend yourself, the less handling, the better. If you're constantly messing with it, statistically you're more likely to have an issue. Take that for what it is - just my opinion.

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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by Murph » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:57 pm

LowKey wrote:
Murph wrote: Don't forget ADs can happen when unholstering / holstering too, not just handling or manipulating the pistol. Hence why I asked why people don't take holster off with the pistol still in it...
I always did when I was using a paddle holster.
Guns are inanimate objects. If they are in good repair they won't go off unless you pull the trigger-period. No reason to pull it out of the holster to clear it when putting the whole shebang up for the night, just a press check in the AM to be sure it's still GTG. After all, you're still treating it as loaded (which it is) the whole time.
"You" don't always have to pull the trigger... There are enough accounts of pistols getting caught on clothes, pull strings, floppy holsters, and gone off.
And press check? Really? If someone came and unloaded your pistol while you weren't looking, then it wasn't secure enough! Not to mention that defeats the point of avoiding the extra manipulation AD risk...
Does your BOB at least have: water, basic tools, fire, food, first-aid kit, and shelter?
"When planning, prepare for the most likely, and then the most catastrophic."
raptor wrote: Being a gun collector does not make you a prepper.
the_alias wrote: Murph has all the diplomacy of a North Korean warhead, but -he has- a valid point

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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by DementedDigital » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:08 pm

Murph wrote:"You" don't always have to pull the trigger... There are enough accounts of pistols getting caught on clothes, pull strings, floppy holsters, and gone off.
So true. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ariz-man-sh ... waistband/

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