Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

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Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by 0122358 » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:05 pm

So I was hanging with a couple of my buddies the other day and we all CC handguns. But we carry different load outs. I was carrying my G19 with two extra 17 round mags, and a S&W 442 .38 IWB. My other buddy was carrying an M&P full size 9mm with one extra mag in his pocket, while the final guy was carrying just a G26 in a crossbreed. It got me thinking because we started talking about extra mags versus a back uop gun.

The usual "if you can't end the target in X number off rounds you need to practice more" debate came up. How much is too much and what determines what you'll be carrying for the day?

For me? My carry set up was heavy because I was out of town in an unfamiliar area, but usually lately because of the summer I'm just carry my snub nose and an extra cylinder or just my G19 depending on where I'm going.

So my questions are:

Do you carry a back up gun?

Do you carry extra magazines?

Do you carry both?

Just trying to get a feeler for what Y'all do for the fun of it.
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by ManInBlack316 » Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:22 pm

I carry one extra extended mag with my pistol. I have a horizontal mag pouch that I wear on my weak side that make it comfortable, if I had a different mag pouch that carried two, I'd probably carry two but I barely notice this pouch so I like it.
If I'm feeling ultra paranoid, like going downtown or some other high crime area, I might carry a third mag in my pocket as well.
I only have one pistol, so no back-up gun for me.

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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by Las Vegan » Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:31 pm

Glock 19 4 o'clock or appendix, and either one or two spare 17-round mags 8 o'clock.

The old "If you can't stop a threat with X-number of rounds..." argument is stupid and pointless. No one, regardless of their skill level or amount of training, ever said after a gun fight that they wish they had had fewer rounds. Many, on the other hand, were either glad that they had spare mags or wish that they did.

Carry at least one gun and at least one spare mag. Sh*t happens. Mags fail and guns jam. Misses happen. Multiple assailants happen. A type 3 malfunction is cleared by ripping out the mag and inserting a new one, which is hard to do without a spare mag.
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by Kutter_0311 » Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:14 pm

I just got a G42, and have been digging having that in my pocket. I carry the other mag in my other pocket, with a knife.

This has replaced the G35 on my hip with spare mag in pocket.

If more is needed, it's usually in the car(SGL-21).
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by olbaid_dratsab » Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:02 am

always a loaded pistol and a spare mag on me.

I don't carry a bug on me. If I'm going somewhere far or overnight, I make sure to have access to a BUG. It may be locked in my car or locked in my bag, but its always there. Its not just for back-up either. It usually serves a purpose on the trip. Like I plan on running during the trip and need a smaller runnin-shorts-gun, or my attire just won't permit the usual Glock19.
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by quazi » Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:06 am

I don't carry an extra magazine at the moment. I probably should, more for the malfunction/fuckup aspect than the extra rounds.
Edit: I don't carry most days because I pretty much walk straight to work where it isn't allowed and then walk straight home. When I'm home I have an airweight revolver as a sweatpants gun, and my thinking is that if I'm carrying that because I'm too lazy for a double stack I'm not going to bother with extra ammo.

Something I was thinking about the other day when I heard someone say something along the lines of "if I can't get them in [whatever] then I [some bullshit]." Police miss more often than they hit when they fire their weapons. Handguns aren't that great at reliably stopping an attacker immediately. Criminals often work in groups.

If you were attacked by two criminals, you missed two out of three times, and each one took two hits to bring down that would be twelve rounds. That is more rounds than most single stacks and sub-compacts have in a single magazine. Missing two out of three times is within the normal range for police shootings from what I've read.

To get more extreme, if there are three attackers, you miss three out of four times and each one takes three hits to stop that would be thirty-six rounds. To have that many rounds most people would have to carry two extra double-stack magazines.

Missing three out of four times is still a realistic number based on some of the percentages I've seen on police shootings. Do I actually think a person is likely to have to shoot 36 times? No, I think that is extremely unlikely, and not something I would personally bother thinking about for EDC. I'm guessing that there are special circumstances and events that skew the average hit percentages down in police officer shootings. I just think it is something to think about whenever someone says "if you can't hit them in..."

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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by Neptune Glory » Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:39 am

0122358 wrote: So my questions are:

Do you carry a back up gun?

Do you carry extra magazines?

Do you carry both?
1. Yes, I carry a Glock 19 as primary and a Glock 26 as backup... one day would like to get a second Glock 26 and conceal carry the two model 26s, leaving the 19 at home in the bedside safe with a flashlight mounted permanently.

2. Yes, I carry one 15-round spare magazine, it came with the Glock 19 but it can be loaded into either the 19 or the 26.

3. See above *winks*

My thought process is, I'm not the most nimble person ever. So while Glocks are pretty reliable, I could accidentally drop one of them. In that case, would need to draw the other.

As far as the backup magazine, I'm not worried about running out of ammunition... I'm worried about a magazine feed problem, hence the extra magazine that will work with either pistol.
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by RonnyRonin » Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:59 pm

G19 appendix and one G17 mag in pants pocket. As several people have said, more for malfunctions then a perception that more then 15 rounds is a likely need. eventually I'd like to get a nice kydex weak-side appendix mag holder that bolts to a get-off-me/EDC knife sheath.

I also believe the "if you need more then X-number of rounds..." belongs in the "racking the shotgun" file of tired cliches, but it does have a kernel of truth. I think we all agree the chance of average Joe needing a gun at all is slim, and the chances of him needing more then 2-3 rounds is even slimmer (I think there is some statistic somewhere, but I'm lazy). The chances of his gun malfunctioning at the exact unlikely time he needs it is slimmer yet, But...
If you think the effort of carrying at least one spare mag is just too much, then why do you go to the work of carrying a gun at all? After that first hurdle the second one seems very minor (except for you wheel gun guys, spares for that sounds like a PITA).

something else that comes to mind is that when I draw I have a hard time shooting less then 3-4 rounds just on reflex and I've heard enough stories of cops emptying the magazine without realizing it, I think if I drew and fired I wouldn't really trust myself to know exactly how many shots I took and would top of the gun at the first lull just to hedge my bets.

I don't carry a BUG (ever) because 1) expensive, and B) don't know where I'd put it and keep my "even in a t-shirt" profile. I can certainly understand the appeal, faster then a reload or clearing a malfunction, but my compromise is to try to have a knife to fall back on if things are that dire. Chances of that are hardly worth mentioning, but I need a knife anyway so why not?
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by 0122358 » Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:12 pm

Great responses everyone keep it up

I too think the "number of rounds to X" is bullshit. I carry what I carry because mainly because of malfunctions, but also you can never have enough ammo. Plus the two G17 mags weigh about the same as my G19 w/ X300U so it perceptually balances it out. Well that And I'm moving into the inner city where crime is pretty high and historically pretty gang intense so screw low round count.
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by ineffableone » Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:54 pm

Just a little point on the whole "if you can't hit a target in X amount of rounds you need more practice" while over played and misused it does have some validity. Now I do agree that stress of an actual gun fight will make someone who has a lot of practice target shooting miss a lot more. So expecting someone with no actual combat experience to hit a target in just a couple shots is naive. But there is still some truth in the concept of not needing excessive rounds. You shouldn't just spray and pray. Training to shoot is important, working on accuracy, even simulating stress, and I think that is what the comment is really supposed to be about. Has it been misinterpreted and used by people to justify something else, sure. But the idea it self is not bad. People should work on getting on target before pulling the trigger, instead of shooting first and adjusting aim as they see the impact location. The idea that if you can't hit your target in a specified amount of rounds signifies the need to train more is not a bad concept, what is annoying is how this valid concept has been misinterpreted and misused by people.

BTW, I sadly don't have my concealed carry yet, but do open carry when appropriate. Always a minimum of one spare mag or cylinder, more often 2 spares. Only time I carry a back up is when carrying my BP revolvers, as it is faster to draw a new weapon than to replace the cylinder, though the 1858 Remmingtons do have a fast cylinder exchange.
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by olbaid_dratsab » Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:05 am

Am I the only one that carries more rounds specifically for mitigating more threats? Like that is my primary reason. The malfunction aspect is just a bonus advantage. Really, I've never even had a malfunction (except one using blanks in an AR with like thousand-year-old mags) that rendered a mag unusable and required me to strip it from the gun and jettison it. If there is a ranking system of importance for a spare mag, the malfunction is pretty low on the list. Its on it, but low on it.

Here's a thought game. What would you feel safer with? One gun loaded with one 15rnd mag? Or one gun loaded with one 7 rnd mag, one in the chamber and a spare 7 round mag? I'll take the option that doesn't result in an empty gun after 8 shots.
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by eugene » Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:20 am

One 12 round magazine in the pistol, another 12 round spare.

When traveling to the Farm, 4 more magazines in the backpack.
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by DementedDigital » Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:11 am

Here is an interesting article on the number of rounds:

http://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/ ... n-the-job/

I don't carry a back up gun.

I do carry an extra magazine about 90% of the time. I really should carry two (or more), as the pistol that I usually carry is capacity-challenged, even though it's not particularly small. I just did some training, and one magazine runs empty pretty fast.

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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by 0122358 » Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:05 pm

olbaid_dratsab wrote:Am I the only one that carries more rounds specifically for mitigating more threats? Like that is my primary reason. The malfunction aspect is just a bonus advantage. Really, I've never even had a malfunction (except one using blanks in an AR with like thousand-year-old mags) that rendered a mag unusable and required me to strip it from the gun and jettison it. If there is a ranking system of importance for a spare mag, the malfunction is pretty low on the list. Its on it, but low on it.

Here's a thought game. What would you feel safer with? One gun loaded with one 15rnd mag? Or one gun loaded with one 7 rnd mag, one in the chamber and a spare 7 round mag? I'll take the option that doesn't result in an empty gun after 8 shots.
I go back and forth between malfunctions and more rounds. If I go through 60 rounds I'm in deep shit and should have brought a rifle, but I carry because I do not know what I might face and want as much as an edge as possible, your weapon might be perfect and flawless but Murph is a cold hearted asshole who likes to pop up from time to time.

But yes, ill take the 15+1 vs the 7+1+7 any day.
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by ultra magnus » Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:17 pm

I Rarely carry a reload. I often carry a second gun. I like having a revolver weak hand as it gives me access to a gun if my strong hand is otherwise occupied, or disabled.

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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by Neptune Glory » Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:56 pm

DementedDigital wrote:Here is an interesting article on the number of rounds:

http://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/ ... n-the-job/
Wow, I don't blame him.

As a civilian, though, I'm not chasing violent offenders on a day to day basis... so I don't think I'll carry all that with me. Just a personal choice. *winks*
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by DementedDigital » Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:37 pm

Yeah, crazy story, for sure. I'm comfortable with 7+1+7 (or +14). If I'm going somewhere where I think I'll need more than that, I just don't go!

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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by jor-el » Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:23 pm

Really? I chide every guy that makes the claim about self-limiting your ammo supplies.
There was a Loo that carried 6 spare mags for a total of 106 rounds. In his patrolman days in the Bronx he lost a shootout at the end of the revolver period and was injured as a result. He vowed never to get caught short again.

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Six for six, then the perp ran up on him while he was reloading and gave him seven to the head.

Then there's this scenario:
http://nypost.com/2015/07/01/ex-cnn-anc ... -shootout/
Try winning a gunfight where you start by getting shot three times coming out of the shower, and your wife is in the room with the perp.
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by Murph » Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:12 am

0122358 wrote:but Murph is a cold hearted asshole who likes to pop up from time to time.
Hey now!! 8-)

Depending on what I'm doing and where I'm going it might be any combination of the following:
Pistol, Spare Mag, Small Fixed Blade Knife, Waved Folding Knife, Pepper Spray, Small Med Kit
Does your BOB at least have: water, basic tools, fire, food, first-aid kit, and shelter?
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by olbaid_dratsab » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:06 am

DementedDigital wrote:Yeah, crazy story, for sure. I'm comfortable with 7+1+7 (or +14). If I'm going somewhere where I think I'll need more than that, I just don't go!

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So if you need 16 rounds you won't go, but 15 and under...game on?
Thats like saying "I'm cool with a car crash that only needs a seatbelt, but I refuse to crash with one that needs a seat belt AND an air bag" Like, those statements never made sense to me.
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by Murph » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:33 pm

olbaid_dratsab wrote:Thats like saying "I'm cool with a car crash that only needs a seatbelt, but I refuse to crash with one that needs a seat belt AND an air bag" Like, those statements never made sense to me.
That because people have the idea that some places are more or less safe than other places.
But in reality, NO place is safe; bad shit can happen anywhere.
Does your BOB at least have: water, basic tools, fire, food, first-aid kit, and shelter?
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by gun toting monkeyboy » Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:40 pm

(sigh) Some of us are still waiting on the outcome of Peruta to finally be able to carry in our home state. However, when I am visiting other states that honor my permits, I tend to only carry the one gun, with the magazine that is in it. That means I usually only have 5-11 rounds, depending on what I happen to have. I know I should probably carry more, but the times when I actually get to carry are so few and far between that I don't stress about it too much.

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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by olbaid_dratsab » Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:20 pm

I don't know. In practice it probably doesn't matter. Carry a mag for a malfunction or for more bad guys...what changes? Nothing. You still have a reload. Go here, but avoid there. What changes? Nothing. Your gun's capabilities aren't limited by geographical location.

There just seems to be a difference between the two similar thought processes of going/not going place. Like bringing a better gun to a shady area isn't the same as assuming you can predict where you'll need a gun or not. Like if I knew I was going to need any gun, not just a really good one, I'd avoid the situation. Ol'boy probably didn't mean it literally anyways.
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Re: Concealed Carry: BUGs vs Mags

Post by DementedDigital » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:12 pm

olbaid_dratsab wrote:
DementedDigital wrote:Yeah, crazy story, for sure. I'm comfortable with 7+1+7 (or +14). If I'm going somewhere where I think I'll need more than that, I just don't go!

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So if you need 16 rounds you won't go, but 15 and under...game on?
Thats like saying "I'm cool with a car crash that only needs a seatbelt, but I refuse to crash with one that needs a seat belt AND an air bag" Like, those statements never made sense to me.
I'm not sure if you're serious or just poking fun. Of course it's not black and white like your post seems to indicate.

I carry two magazines primarily for the possibility of magazine failure, since that's one likely failure on a semi-auto handgun. (The magazine is more likely to fail than the actual firearm.) The extra rounds are second to that.

The other point is that a prudent person avoids areas which are more prone to conflict. I don't know any statistics about it, but my guess is that in my area, at the times I come and go, and with awareness and deescalation/avoidance, the chance of a fight is small - the chance of a fight involving lethal force is even smaller - the chance of me needing more than two magazines is even smaller yet. Is there a chance - sure. (There is also a chance that I could be struck by a meteor tomorrow.) You could try to prepare for every possibility, but at some point you've just got to go live your life and accept some risk. I'm OK with my number of rounds and magazines. If I were in another line of work or frequented areas with higher violent crime, then I reserve the right to change my mind about my selections.

Edited to add: I'm not cool with ANY car crash in your scenario regardless of safety equipment, just like I'm not cool with any fight - especially a gunfight. I'd rather not fire a single round in anger, and I certainly don't want any fired at me.
Last edited by DementedDigital on Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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