Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by TheLastOne » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:53 am

Greg Focker wrote:
AK47Heaven wrote:Anybody know if 55gr SP is shitty or not for SD/HD? PPU .223 Rem out of a 16", if it matters.
I'd rather use M193. Anything inside of 150 meters or so, M193 will reliably fragment from a 16" barrel. Except under truly oddball circumstances, it'd be hard to articulate SD past 150 meters. And I know my hallways at home never reach 150+ meters...

EDIT: I've got a couple mags of 75gr TAP, including the one sitting in my carbine right now. I don't have the cash to buy TAP by the case though, so my "second line" ammo is M193.

Same. I have 3 twenty round mags of tap and then 193.
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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by AS556 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:44 pm

I could probably afford a couple mags of good ammo but not enough to function test it (120rds) and have some left for the house. I grabbed the PPU because it was .50c/rd and I saw a youtube test where the 55gr SP went 15" and expanded pretty nicely. Plus in the past PPU has been reliable, accurate ammo for me. I have 9 or 10 mags loaded up with XM193 so maybe I'll roll with that. But..but...its not on DocGKRs approved list... :gonk:

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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by Shiloh » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:54 pm

i spent two hours polishing the Mosin's bore today with some JB compound, plus doing a thorough cleaning and inspecting the bolt. I'm hoping this helps the problem I had the last time I shot it, which was the bolt being near-impossible to open, and the spent casings being completely stuck in the bore even after that. Now I just need somewhere to shoot so I can see if it did anything. :vmad:
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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by Sledgecrowbar » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:39 pm

Shiloh wrote:i spent two hours polishing the Mosin's bore today with some JB compound, plus doing a thorough cleaning and inspecting the bolt. I'm hoping this helps the problem I had the last time I shot it, which was the bolt being near-impossible to open, and the spent casings being completely stuck in the bore even after that. Now I just need somewhere to shoot so I can see if it did anything. :vmad:
I did a far less thorough job on my bore and the problem persisted. I thought I was pretty aggressive with the chamber, I went at it with a cheap 16-gauge bronze brush I had laying around and a lot of compound and solvent. Did pretty much nothing, so I'm thinking it's still a headspacing issue. It's hard to tell with rimmed cartridges, one of these days I have to mic a new round against one just fired.

I'd really like to see some good home defense ammo for the AR and I'm sure there'd be a great market for it, but the round just doesn't give you a lot of room for improvement in that sense. I'd like to grab my AR in a bad situation but it's just not the better choice, all it has going for it is capacity and range, and in my current state that capacity is limited to 15 rounds, so there's no advantage over a handgun, and the farthest clear line-of-sight distance in my neighborhood is less than 100 yards, too.

If someone came up with a super-heavy bullet, say at least an inch-and-a-half long, that expanded like crazy, that would completely turn around my thoughts on the AR for home defense. With the muzzle energy of a very hot .357 and the expansion of a broadhead, that would be awesome. I don't even know if it's feasible to load a bullet that far recessed into the case, though.
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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by Shiloh » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:47 pm

Sledgecrowbar wrote:
Shiloh wrote:i spent two hours polishing the Mosin's bore today with some JB compound, plus doing a thorough cleaning and inspecting the bolt. I'm hoping this helps the problem I had the last time I shot it, which was the bolt being near-impossible to open, and the spent casings being completely stuck in the bore even after that. Now I just need somewhere to shoot so I can see if it did anything. :vmad:
I did a far less thorough job on my bore and the problem persisted. I thought I was pretty aggressive with the chamber, I went at it with a cheap 16-gauge bronze brush I had laying around and a lot of compound and solvent. Did pretty much nothing, so I'm thinking it's still a headspacing issue. It's hard to tell with rimmed cartridges, one of these days I have to mic a new round against one just fired.
That's what I'm worried about. I'm assuming there's no way to fix a headspacing problem?
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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:07 pm

Sledgecrowbar wrote:I'd really like to see some good home defense ammo for the AR and I'm sure there'd be a great market for it, but the round just doesn't give you a lot of room for improvement in that sense. I'd like to grab my AR in a bad situation but it's just not the better choice, all it has going for it is capacity and range, and in my current state that capacity is limited to 15 rounds, so there's no advantage over a handgun, and the farthest clear line-of-sight distance in my neighborhood is less than 100 yards, too.

If someone came up with a super-heavy bullet, say at least an inch-and-a-half long, that expanded like crazy, that would completely turn around my thoughts on the AR for home defense. With the muzzle energy of a very hot .357 and the expansion of a broadhead, that would be awesome. I don't even know if it's feasible to load a bullet that far recessed into the case, though.
Compare the gel tests of a good fragmenting round to the handgun ammo you're looking at. Note that (most) fragmenting rounds actually penetrate less drywall than a handgun round (at angles, not necessarily straight on) which also decreases you chances of hitting something you don't want to. Note the incredibly higher stop rates for long arms, increased accuracy, and stability and you have a hard time making the "no advantage over a handgun" case.

There's also a fuckload of defensive ammo on the market. Either you're not looking for it or don't know what it looks like.
Shiloh wrote:That's what I'm worried about. I'm assuming there's no way to fix a headspacing problem?
Try headspacing the bolt.
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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by Dave_M » Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:53 pm

Sledge- are you implying there isn't any good 5.56 HD ammo? :?:
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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by raxar » Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:54 pm

Shiloh wrote:i spent two hours polishing the Mosin's bore today with some JB compound, plus doing a thorough cleaning and inspecting the bolt. I'm hoping this helps the problem I had the last time I shot it, which was the bolt being near-impossible to open, and the spent casings being completely stuck in the bore even after that. Now I just need somewhere to shoot so I can see if it did anything. :vmad:
Sledgecrowbar wrote: I did a far less thorough job on my bore and the problem persisted. I thought I was pretty aggressive with the chamber, I went at it with a cheap 16-gauge bronze brush I had laying around and a lot of compound and solvent. Did pretty much nothing, so I'm thinking it's still a headspacing issue. It's hard to tell with rimmed cartridges, one of these days I have to mic a new round against one just fired.
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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by Shiloh » Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:11 pm

I saw that video last night, Raxar. I unfortunately don't have a punch or round file, but I did my best to improvise.
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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by Greg Focker » Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:18 pm

Sledgecrowbar wrote:If someone came up with a super-heavy bullet, say at least an inch-and-a-half long, that expanded like crazy, that would completely turn around my thoughts on the AR for home defense. With the muzzle energy of a very hot .357 and the expansion of a broadhead, that would be awesome. I don't even know if it's feasible to load a bullet that far recessed into the case, though.
So, I'm guessing you don't realize that if you to want to reach hot .357 Magnum levels, you'd need to take standard 5.56mm rounds and download them by ~33%?
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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by Sledgecrowbar » Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:19 pm

Dave_M wrote:Sledge- are you implying there isn't any good 5.56 HD ammo? :?:
I feel it's comparative. There's certainly 5.56 (and .223) ammo that's far better than other 5.56/.223, but inside a house, I don't see there being ammo that's as tailored to the purpose as handgun and shotshell ammo has become. We have, I guess you would call it "police" ammo, or at least that's how it's marketed, but I don't see any "defensive" ammo with requisite images of a pregnant woman and a German Shepherd on the box.

I think that's pretty sensible, as you'd expect the average joe to go with one of those two latter options for HD, but the AR really deserves to get the kind of product R&D that 9/40/45 HP and, say, 12-gauge steel shot gets. There are huge markets for both of those, but I think the first manufacturer to come out with a heavy-hitting HD-specific round that focused on wounding potential and barrier-obedience (not sure how else to phrase the opposite of barrier-blindness) could really do well.

If fragmentation is really the wounding method of good super-lightweight rifle ammo like .223/5.56, then I guess they've already come up with it and there's nothing else to do. I figured it was more about making a big, deep wound channel by using as much mass and energy as the platform allows, but the .223's pixie dust round combined with 3k+ fps seems more suited to Southeast Asian jungle warfare than my living room IYKWIM. I know it excelled there because of yawing on impact, but doesn't it not do that at ten feet?

While the AR is almost everyone's favorite pick, and certainly mine, too, I think it needs a little something to be justified as almost everyone's favorite HD pick. I think .300AAC could be that something, but it doesn't seem to have caught on as a HD option, at least not publicly.

My AO is specific in that it just utterly does not lend itself to rifle ballistics. It's so damned tight here that I wouldn't hesitate to use a shotgun to pick off a threat at the far end of my neighbor's property (not that such an act would be legal here). What I'm talking about is a round for the AR for indoors. For folks with real property, the AR with current ammo may very well be the smartest choice to defend your home and a few hundred feet of radius around it.
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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:30 pm

Sledgecrowbar wrote:
Dave_M wrote:Sledge- are you implying there isn't any good 5.56 HD ammo? :?:
I feel it's comparative. There's certainly 5.56 (and .223) ammo that's far better than other 5.56/.223, but inside a house, I don't see there being ammo that's as tailored to the purpose as handgun and shotshell ammo has become. We have, I guess you would call it "police" ammo, or at least that's how it's marketed, but I don't see any "defensive" ammo with requisite images of a pregnant woman and a German Shepherd on the box.

I think that's pretty sensible, as you'd expect the average joe to go with one of those two latter options for HD, but the AR really deserves to get the kind of product R&D that 9/40/45 HP and, say, 12-gauge steel shot gets. There are huge markets for both of those, but I think the first manufacturer to come out with a heavy-hitting HD-specific round that focused on wounding potential and barrier-obedience (not sure how else to phrase the opposite of barrier-blindness) could really do well.

If fragmentation is really the wounding method of good super-lightweight rifle ammo like .223/5.56, then I guess they've already come up with it and there's nothing else to do. I figured it was more about making a big, deep wound channel by using as much mass and energy as the platform allows, but the .223's pixie dust round combined with 3k+ fps seems more suited to Southeast Asian jungle warfare than my living room IYKWIM. I know it excelled there because of yawing on impact, but doesn't it not do that at ten feet?

While the AR is almost everyone's favorite pick, and certainly mine, too, I think it needs a little something to be justified as almost everyone's favorite HD pick. I think .300AAC could be that something, but it doesn't seem to have caught on as a HD option, at least not publicly.

My AO is specific in that it just utterly does not lend itself to rifle ballistics. It's so damned tight here that I wouldn't hesitate to use a shotgun to pick off a threat at the far end of my neighbor's property (not that such an act would be legal here). What I'm talking about is a round for the AR for indoors. For folks with real property, the AR with current ammo may very well be the smartest choice to defend your home and a few hundred feet of radius around it.
I think the problem is your limited understanding of what rounds are out there and popular, how they perform, what matters in performance (hint: energy is bullshit) and your training level. I don't mean that to be exceptionally rude, but you're presenting statements that don't hold true in reality. For instance, 5.56 yawing, or a 9mm being superior to a 5.56 given the same roundcount. Or there not being defensive loads developed for the AR. Or the muzzle energy of 5.56. Or calling fragmenting 5.56 "pixie dust."
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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by Sledgecrowbar » Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:30 pm

Greg Focker wrote:So, I'm guessing you don't realize that if you to want to reach hot .357 Magnum levels, you'd need to take standard 5.56mm rounds and download them by ~33%?
I was considering the loss of energy of running projectile weights far in excess of design. Say you managed to make a 150-grain projectile for the .223, you might be looking at more like 850 ft/lb-f as opposed to 1100 for standard military ammo. The difference may not even be that bad, I was just estimating low to consider if it would be worth the trouble.

Those videos are great, but I wasn't having any bolt-closure problems, mine is only stuck after firing, it's smooth when cycling empty, so I went with the chamber compounding. I may just not have done enough, I'm sure considering how beat up my bore is, the chamber could stand a bunch more polishing. I have a neck sizer so even if I go a bit on the large side I should have a good snug fit after the brass goes through once. It probably wouldn't hurt to at least feel for a roll on the bolt face, though.
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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by Sledgecrowbar » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:01 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:I think the problem is your limited understanding of what rounds are out there and popular, how they perform, what matters in performance (hint: energy is bullshit) and your training level. I don't mean that to be exceptionally rude, but you're presenting statements that don't hold true in reality. For instance, 5.56 yawing, or a 9mm being superior to a 5.56 given the same roundcount. Or there not being defensive loads developed for the AR. Or the muzzle energy of 5.56. Or calling fragmenting 5.56 "pixie dust."
How is the yawing action of 5.56 not important? It makes a tremendous difference in the wounding capability of the round. If energy is bullshit, how is a round of 147-grain 9mm not superior to virtually any round of 5.56? What else is there besides bullet mass and design, and terminal energy? We are still on the subject of home defense, where at least maximum range is not a concern.

I specifically said that there are defensive rounds for 5.56, but none that were tailored for home defense, as we have so many in handgun and shotshell calibers. I'm not sure where you read that I said anything about the muzzle energy of 5.56, but then I'm starting to think you almost didn't read what I wrote anyway. I didn't call fragmenting 5.56 pixie dust at all, I called the size of the round itself pixie dust because it's literally half the weight of a 9mm round when I'm talking about 9mm being the smallest HD round I'm comparing it to.

I'd admit the point that 5.56 has almost four times the muzzle energy of 9mm, but muzzle energy is bullshit, so I guess that drops out of the equation and we're left with a pixie dust round with less than 40% more mass than .22LR. I don't know, is bullet weight also bullshit? What is not bullshit? I guess current defensive ammo is not bullshit.
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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by 0122358 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:03 pm

Even with the approved list on Afcom, the 556 defense thread on ZS and my own research, im still having real difficulty finding a good 5.56 round for HD...now keep in mind I've got no experience with ballistics and how it acts...watching gel tests is cool...but I guess It doesn't help me at all...

I'm looking for an accurate reliable round that is good out of a 14.5 to 16 inch barrel that is most effective under 100-150 yards. over penetration through walls is an issue as one side I've got neighbors about 30 yards to my left through a really thin green belt. Behind my house are thick woods with an incline, a house is about 100 yards through the trees. To my right I've got neighbors lining the street with about 80 yards of thick ass woods. To my front I'm good. big wide open field with a large elevation change. no houses except one about 250 yards but at an angle that would take a miracle to hit.

But realistically around my immediate AO, close in lets say anywhere from 0 to 20 yards in my house, 50-75 yards to the very edges of my property, and anywhere from 50 to 400 in my little valley at its stretches. But for legality sakes, keep my engagement distances to about 50 yards outside, 10-25 inside.

So what should I look for in 556 HD ammo? Obviously, hopefully its going to penetrate and probably go out the other side if I understand the basics of 5.56 ballistics. So Barrier Blind ammo would be a no-go? So what about expansion versus fragmentation?

My understanding is expansion, example JHP or SP, it mushrooms out, getting bigger in size and causing more damage as it creates the wound through the body.

Fragmentation, when it hits it shatters into multiple fragments causing multiple smaller wound channels right?

Am I anywhere close?
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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by Dave_M » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:19 pm

5.56 does remarkably well indoors and has a reduced risk of collateral damage when compared to pistol calibers due to round fragmentation when an intermediate barrier is struck.

This is a large part of the reason why most local and federal ERT/SWAT teams switched to M4's from MP5's years ago.

Unless you're using an unconventional material of high density (such as tungsten) for projectile construction you're limited in grain weight to sub-80gr if you want to use the magazine.

There were/are several companies making projectiles in the 87-100gr range using heavy metal cores but.... they were mostly made for the opposite reason that you're looking for (to be stable through barriers). Mk318 Mod 0 beat all of those out though (plus the 62gr projo works with the BDC of issued ACOGs).

Plenty of good loadings already out there without having to reinvent the wheel or get gimmicky with crap like DRT/eXtremeshok/whatever
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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:23 pm

Sledgecrowbar wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:I think the problem is your limited understanding of what rounds are out there and popular, how they perform, what matters in performance (hint: energy is bullshit) and your training level. I don't mean that to be exceptionally rude, but you're presenting statements that don't hold true in reality. For instance, 5.56 yawing, or a 9mm being superior to a 5.56 given the same roundcount. Or there not being defensive loads developed for the AR. Or the muzzle energy of 5.56. Or calling fragmenting 5.56 "pixie dust."
How is the yawing action of 5.56 not important? It makes a tremendous difference in the wounding capability of the round. If energy is bullshit, how is a round of 147-grain 9mm not superior to virtually any round of 5.56? What else is there besides bullet mass and design, and terminal energy? We are still on the subject of home defense, where at least maximum range is not a concern.

I specifically said that there are defensive rounds for 5.56, but none that were tailored for home defense, as we have so many in handgun and shotshell calibers. I'm not sure where you read that I said anything about the muzzle energy of 5.56, but then I'm starting to think you almost didn't read what I wrote anyway. I didn't call fragmenting 5.56 pixie dust at all, I called the size of the round itself pixie dust because it's literally half the weight of a 9mm round when I'm talking about 9mm being the smallest HD round I'm comparing it to.

I'd admit the point that 5.56 has almost four times the muzzle energy of 9mm, but muzzle energy is bullshit, so I guess that drops out of the equation and we're left with a pixie dust round with less than 40% more mass than .22LR. I don't know, is bullet weight also bullshit? What is not bullshit? I guess current defensive ammo is not bullshit.
Bullet weight is sometimes bullshit. Why is 5.56 superior to 9mm? I answered that further back. The rifle's easier to aim and control. The wound channel of a fragmenting 5.56 exceeds the potential of a 9mm, while it veers off in drywall (at most angles, not straight on) whereas 9mm tends to plow through.

You keep downtalking the size, which is why I think you're under educated. Also, fragmenting rifle rounds don't rely on yaw within their fragmentation range.
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See that -permanent- ballistic cavity? Show me that size in a handgun round. Oh, fired through 4 layers of denim, per FBI specs.

I have yet to see any handgun or shotgun load specifically designed for home defense that isn't A) a BS gimmick (frangibles, exotic SG loads) or B) the same round as something else in their lineup with a different name/package.

Stop getting hung up on the diameter and weight of the round or the energy numbers and look at the one thing that really matters. Real world performance. While you're at it, look up any of the terminal ballistics and wounding studies and tell me how rifles stack up as opposed to handguns as far as accuracy, rounds to stop, and lethality.

Like Dave said, there's a really good reason MP5s and shotguns are being replaced by ARs for entry teams and patrol rifles. (With the exception of breaching rounds)

ETA: TAP, since I'm posting pictures.
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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by 0122358 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:30 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Sledgecrowbar wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:I think the problem is your limited understanding of what rounds are out there and popular, how they perform, what matters in performance (hint: energy is bullshit) and your training level. I don't mean that to be exceptionally rude, but you're presenting statements that don't hold true in reality. For instance, 5.56 yawing, or a 9mm being superior to a 5.56 given the same roundcount. Or there not being defensive loads developed for the AR. Or the muzzle energy of 5.56. Or calling fragmenting 5.56 "pixie dust."
How is the yawing action of 5.56 not important? It makes a tremendous difference in the wounding capability of the round. If energy is bullshit, how is a round of 147-grain 9mm not superior to virtually any round of 5.56? What else is there besides bullet mass and design, and terminal energy? We are still on the subject of home defense, where at least maximum range is not a concern.

I specifically said that there are defensive rounds for 5.56, but none that were tailored for home defense, as we have so many in handgun and shotshell calibers. I'm not sure where you read that I said anything about the muzzle energy of 5.56, but then I'm starting to think you almost didn't read what I wrote anyway. I didn't call fragmenting 5.56 pixie dust at all, I called the size of the round itself pixie dust because it's literally half the weight of a 9mm round when I'm talking about 9mm being the smallest HD round I'm comparing it to.

I'd admit the point that 5.56 has almost four times the muzzle energy of 9mm, but muzzle energy is bullshit, so I guess that drops out of the equation and we're left with a pixie dust round with less than 40% more mass than .22LR. I don't know, is bullet weight also bullshit? What is not bullshit? I guess current defensive ammo is not bullshit.
Bullet weight is sometimes bullshit. Why is 5.56 superior to 9mm? I answered that further back. The rifle's easier to aim and control. The wound channel of a fragmenting 5.56 exceeds the potential of a 9mm, while it veers off in drywall (at most angles, not straight on) whereas 9mm tends to plow through.

You keep downtalking the size, which is why I think you're under educated. Also, fragmenting rifle rounds don't rely on yaw within their fragmentation range.
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See that -permanent- ballistic cavity? Show me that size in a handgun round. Oh, fired through 4 layers of denim, per FBI specs.

I have yet to see any handgun or shotgun load specifically designed for home defense that isn't A) a BS gimmick (frangibles, exotic SG loads) or B) the same round as something else in their lineup with a different name/package.

Stop getting hung up on the diameter and weight of the round or the energy numbers and look at the one thing that really matters. Real world performance. While you're at it, look up any of the terminal ballistics and wounding studies and tell me how rifles stack up as opposed to handguns as far as accuracy, rounds to stop, and lethality.

Like Dave said, there's a really good reason MP5s and shotguns are being replaced by ARs for entry teams and patrol rifles. (With the exception of breaching rounds)

ETA: TAP, since I'm posting pictures.
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Permanent cavity?

Also out of those three, I'd assume you'd recommend the Mod 0?
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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:37 pm

0122358 wrote:Permanent cavity?

Also out of those three, I'd assume you'd recommend the Mod 0?
Permanent cavity. You know when you see a video, the gel gets all stretchy and wonky or HOLY SHIT LOOK AT THAT oh wait it shrunk again. Permanent cavity is the damage that's left, even though it's not necesarily a gaping hole, but normally a bunch of tears/lacerations.

TAP for "all around" use, M193 on a budget.
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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by Sledgecrowbar » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:33 am

While I wasn't thinking about overpenetration or barrier penetration, it definitely is a concern, if not for other people in your home, for neighbors. You are liable for every round you fire. A heavier round like I was mentioning would probably not help matters.

It occurred to me that I was really just wishing for a .300AAC round that fit in a standard AR without bothering with a different barrel or brass. Maybe my argument would be better phrased as "why I think .300AAC is better than 5.56 for home defense". Whether better or worse than 5.56 at barrier penetration, my concern is with how well the round functions at it's primary intended purpose. As an aside, I wonder if the reduced powder capacity negatively affects expansion/fragmentation, if that even happens at all in Blackout.

As far as 5.56's fragmentation upon hitting drywall, or at least not being dangerous unless you hit head on, I remember this test by Box 'o Truth (weight it as you like). I believe in genuine experience, both for and against, but overpenetration wasn't my focus to begin with.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14_4.htm
Lessons learned:

1. Contrary to what we have been told, XM-193 does not seem to "fragment" when shot into drywall walls. After we were through for the day, we even shot several more rounds of XM-193 into the walls to see if we could get one to fragment. They did not.

It is clear that they were tumbling and deviating from the flight path, but they were still penetrating the walls.

Now, before anyone says it, No, I do not know how much damage they would do to someone after the 4th wall. But they would do some damage as they were still penetrating.

2. Remington 55 grain JSP and Frangible 5.56 also penetrated all 4 walls. So did the .30 Carbine.

When shooting rifles, walls are concealment, not cover.

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Until someone invents a "Phaser" like on Star Trek, anything that will stop a bad guy, will also penetrate several walls. (emphasis mine)
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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by UndeadInfidel » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:35 am

I keep 8 mags of 75gr 223 PRVI BTHP loaded up, along with some M193 for my 1:9 AR, 60gr 5.56 A-Max, and 208gr 300blk Hornady A-Max.

Mix and match depending on what I want to shoot.


Edit: Anyone ever seen a side-by-side test betwween Hornady 75gr TAP and PRVI 75gr BTHP?
Last edited by UndeadInfidel on Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by azrael99 » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:51 am

what is the difference between GP90 ammo and standard army 5.56 ?

this is what i found but i want to get more info

The 5.6mm Gw Pat 90 or GP 90 (5.6 mm Rifle Cartridge 90), is the standard round used by the Swiss military in its rifle, the SIG SG 550. The cartridge is also known as the Cart 5.6mm 90 F to the French and Italian speaking Swiss militiamen. The Swiss refer to the round as the 5.6 mm Gw Pat 90, although it is interchangeable with the 5.56×45mm NATO and .223 Remington round. The Gw Pat 90 is optimized for use in 5.56 mm (.223 in) caliber barrels with a 254 mm (1:10 in) twist rate.
The Gw Pat 90 was designed for the SIG SG 550 when it came into production in 1987, replacing the SIG SG 510. Previous experience of a change in standard rifle had proved that changing the distance of fire for the training ranges was more expensive than the design of a new ammunition; this prompted the design of a cartridge nominally capable at 300 meters. The cartridge was also designed to reduce pollution by controlling lead emissions.[95] The bullet was originally clad with a nickel alloy jacket, however, this was found to cause excessive barrel wear, so in 1998 the nickel jackets were replaced with tombac jackets. In addition, in 1999 a copper plug was added to the base of the bullet to address environmental concerns.[95]
The ammunition is currently (2009) produced by RUAG Ammotec, a subsidiary of the RUAG group.[96] The ammunition is manufactured in three variations: the standard FMJ round, the tracer round, and a blank round.
The FMJ cartridge has a Copper-Zinc alloy case and uses a double base propellant. The bullet is a 4.1 g (63 gr) tombac jacketed FMJ projectile with a G1 ballistic coefficient of 0.331 (ICAO) / 0.337 (Army Metro). The projectile contains approximately 95% Pb, 2% Sb, 3% Cu, and was designed for terminal ballistic instability. The required accuracy for Gw Pat 90 ammunition out of factory test barrels is 63 mm (0.72 MOA) for 10 rounds (100% radius measurement method) out to 300 m. The Gw Pat 90 cartridge dimensions are in accordance with the civilian C.I.P. standards for the .223 Remington C.I.P. chambering.[97]
The Gw Pat 90 is used both in the Swiss military and in sport shooting. The very high level of individual training in the Swiss militia (every single soldier bearing a weapon has to shoot for qualification once a year; see Gun politics in Switzerland) and the overall use of the Gw Pat 90 by the many Swiss citizens who shoot in competitions and for amusement has resulted in significant input on its usage. Over 1 billion cartridges have been produced as of 2005.




SS109/M855[edit]
In 1970, NATO decided to standardize a second rifle caliber. Tests were conducted from 1977 to 1980 using U.S. XM177 5.56 mm, Belgian SS109 5.56 mm, British 4.85x49mm, and German 4.7x33mm caseless. No weapon could be agreed upon, as many were prototypes, but the SS109 was found to be the best round and standardized on October 28, 1980. The SS109 was developed in the 1970s for the FN FNC rifle and the FN Minimi machine gun. To increase the range of the Minimi, the round was created to penetrate 3.5 mm of steel at 600 meters. The SS109 had a steel tip and lead rear and was not required to penetrate body armor. Barrels required at least a 1:9 in rifle twist, but needed a 1:7 in rifle twist to fire tracer ammunition.[26][32][36] The U.S. designated the SS109 cartridge the M855 and first used it in the M16A2 rifle. The 62-grain round was heavier than the previous 55-grain M193. While the M855 had better armor penetrating ability, it is less likely to fragment after hitting a soft target. This lessens kinetic energy transfer to the target and reduces wounding capability.[72] The M855 is yaw dependent, meaning it depends on the angle upon which it hits the target. If at a good angle, the round turns as it enters soft tissue, breaking apart and transferring its energy to what it hits. If impacting at a bad angle, it could pass through and fail to transfer its full energy.[38] The SS109 was made to pierce steel helmets at long range from the Minimi, not improve terminal performance on soft tissue from rifles or carbines.[29] In Iraq, troops that engaged insurgents at less than 150 yards found that M855 rounds did not provide enough stopping power. In addition to not causing lethal effects with two or more rounds, they did not effectively penetrate vehicle windshields, even with many rounds fired at extremely close range.[73] In Afghanistan, troops found that M855 rounds also suffered at long ranges. Although 5.56 mm rifles have an effective range of 450–600 meters, the M855 bullet's performance falls off sharply beyond 300 meters. The ranges are even shorter for short-barreled carbines. Half of small-arms attacks were launched from 300-900 meter ranges.[74] An M855 fired from an M4 Carbine has severely degraded performance beyond 150 meters.[29]
The maximum effective point target range of an M4 carbine with M855 rounds is 500 meters, with a maximum effective area target range of 600 meters. These mark the greatest distances the rounds can be expected to accurately hit the target, not the ranges that they have terminal effectiveness against them. Because the M855 is yaw dependent it requires instability in flight to deform upon hitting the target. It is the most stable in flight between 150–350 meters, potentially lessening its effectiveness if it strikes an enemy between those distances. In addition to this, tests have shown that 5.56 mm bullets fragment most reliably when traveling faster than 2,500 ft/s (760 m/s). From full-length 20 in rifle and machine gun barrels, rounds are kept above this velocity out to 200 meters. An M855 from an M4 has a muzzle velocity of 2,970 ft/s (910 m/s), but that is reduced to 2,522 ft/s (769 m/s) by 150 meters. Even if it impacts at optimum speeds, 70 percent of 5.56 mm bullets will not begin to yaw until 4.7 in (120 mm) of tissue penetration. 15 percent more begin to yaw after that distance, so up to 85 percent of rounds that hit do not start to fragment until nearly 5 in of penetration. Against small statured or thin combatants, the M855 has little chance of yawing before passing through cleanly and leaving a wound cavity no bigger than the bullet itself. The factors of impact angle and velocity, instability distance, and penetration before yaw reduce the round's predictable effectiveness considerably in combat situations.[7
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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:08 am

Sledgecrowbar wrote:While I wasn't thinking about overpenetration or barrier penetration, it definitely is a concern, if not for other people in your home, for neighbors. You are liable for every round you fire. A heavier round like I was mentioning would probably not help matters.

It occurred to me that I was really just wishing for a .300AAC round that fit in a standard AR without bothering with a different barrel or brass. Maybe my argument would be better phrased as "why I think .300AAC is better than 5.56 for home defense". Whether better or worse than 5.56 at barrier penetration, my concern is with how well the round functions at it's primary intended purpose. As an aside, I wonder if the reduced powder capacity negatively affects expansion/fragmentation, if that even happens at all in Blackout.

As far as 5.56's fragmentation upon hitting drywall, or at least not being dangerous unless you hit head on, I remember this test by Box 'o Truth (weight it as you like). I believe in genuine experience, both for and against, but overpenetration wasn't my focus to begin with.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14_4.htm
Lessons learned:

1. Contrary to what we have been told, XM-193 does not seem to "fragment" when shot into drywall walls. After we were through for the day, we even shot several more rounds of XM-193 into the walls to see if we could get one to fragment. They did not.

It is clear that they were tumbling and deviating from the flight path, but they were still penetrating the walls.

Now, before anyone says it, No, I do not know how much damage they would do to someone after the 4th wall. But they would do some damage as they were still penetrating.

2. Remington 55 grain JSP and Frangible 5.56 also penetrated all 4 walls. So did the .30 Carbine.

When shooting rifles, walls are concealment, not cover.

[...]

Until someone invents a "Phaser" like on Star Trek, anything that will stop a bad guy, will also penetrate several walls. (emphasis mine)
The wording used is less dangerous at oblique angles. You'll notice they fired straight on every time. Or, to restate what I said before, (some) 5.56 possesses less wounding potential after passing through drywall than a heavier handgun round. Mostly due to it's "pixie dust" weight.

Supersonic .300 AAC may fragment. Depends on the bullet. Subsonic will absolutely not, hence the design of prescored/prefragmented rounds (a la Lehi Defense) to produce better wound profiles. I do not in any way see how you would get better performance at "house" ranges with .300 blackout than 5.56, since you can't suppress, can't run a short barrel, and have the same magazine limit. You'll just increase the cost per trigger pull.

And again, you should do some more research on the different calibers before trying to make an argument for one over another.
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Re: Firearms Chat: Stipple that, home edition

Post by Chris@MTCT » Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:58 pm

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